Shippo pattern or star maps?

[Dan tsuba]

Shippo pattern or star maps? 

 

Below I have shown a couple of tsuba that have a pattern of holes and slots. 

 

These tsuba are not Shippo pattern, but are star maps. 

 

The holes in the tsuba are the stars, and the slots are the guides to move the eye from star to star so that the constellation or star pattern can be discerned in the night sky. 

 

Of course, all the constellations shown on these tsuba can be seen with the naked eye in the night sky (no telescope needed!). 

 

And from AI on the internet- 

“Yes, all three of these celestial formations can be clearly seen in Japan.” 

 

The pictures below show 2 tsuba. 

 

The first picture shown depicts the Big Dipper constellation at the top of the tsuba and the Pleiades (the 7 sisters) star pattern on the bottom of the tsuba. 

 

The second picture shown depicts the Big Dipper at the top of the tsuba and the constellation Cassiopeia (with its distinctive "W" shape) at the bottom of the tsuba. 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Whose words are those Dan, yours, AI’s or someone else’s?

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Piers,

I don't get what you mean in your post- "Whose words are those Dan, yours, AI’s or someone else’s?"

 

Anyway, my main hobby 25 years ago was astronomy so I may know a little about what I am talking about.

Heck, I still even have my 5 telescopes that I used!

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Dan, your post comes up in weird typeset format. It looked as though you were quoting from somewhere…(?)
See:

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Piers, that is weird?  My post doesn't come up like that on my computer.

 

I can assure you that the only thing that has been taken from anywhere in my post is the AI statement from the internet that I placed in quote marks.

 

Onward!

[Kurikata]

I think it is a constellation star design.

 

Please find herewith one of my tsuba with the same topic.

[Dan tsuba]

Found this tsuba on a seller site.

 

It also depicts the Big Dipper and Cassiopeia constellations.  Although the seller doesn't describe it that way.

I don't think the seller has any idea that it shows constellations.

 

 

[Kurikata]

Please refer to this thread:

 

[Dan tsuba]

Bruno,

Thanks for the reference to that thread in 2011 !

I guess at least 4 members thought that the motif could be that of a constellation.

But they didn't know which constellations.

The constellations and star patterns shown on the tsuba in the first picture on that thread are the Big Dipper and the Pleiades (which is a star cluster).

Those constellations and star patterns (along with the Cassiopeia constellation) are the only 3 star patterns that I have seen on tsuba (thus far!).

 

[MauroP]

I don't think this type of pattern has anything to do with stars, and it seems the NBTHK shinsa panel doesn't think so either.

 

[John C]

43 minutes ago, MauroP said:

shinsa panel

Mauro:

If you don't mind, what does NBTHK think? I cannot read what they wrote.

 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

Shippō Mon (Chirashi) Sukashi Tsuba

七宝文散透鐔

(Scattered) Shippō pattern perforations

 

(The rest is Mei and tsuba physical features.)

[FlorianB]

Although there are similarities to star constellations these seem only coincidental.

At least the mentioned constellations have different intervals between the stars.

 

The idea of this scattered (chirashi) shippo-pattern (like many other patterns) is imperfection to symbolize transience and decay. 

[Bugyotsuji]

There are so many ways you can look at this, and there may never be a convincing answer.
You could even say for example that the Shippō pattern itself developed from people looking at the stars, and maybe seeing random patterns. In Japan of course they would not have seen the same Mediterranean mythical figures or creature shapes up there, though you do find allusions to the Hokuto shichisei 北斗七星

One of my netsuke could be a star map, but that is only one interpretation of it and other possibilities remain. I do not feel the need to come down on one side or another. 

My own feeling is that we are free to look at Shippō patterns and make mental associations, and that such poetic lateral association or subtle allusion is an active feature of Japanese art.

[Matsunoki]

Just to add to the debate……some of these are definitely not shippo patterns but do look like constellations imo. Why some have a Ken on the end?……representing a dragon constellation??

[MauroP]

Of course representations of stars and constellations are also present on tsuba, and are acknowledged as so by NBTHK. Here two examples, the second one described as 北斗七星 - Hokutoshichisei - Big Dipper.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

That bottom one above says Hokuto Shichisei.(The dragon’s tail probably  indicating Polaris the Pole star.)

 

Long lusted over this Sendai matchlock in Sawada Taira’s collection.

 

Close-up

 

[Dan tsuba]

Interesting discussion!

 

Anyway, I have shown a picture below of shippo type patterns.

Then the next picture is a shippo motif tsuba.

The following picture is a constellation type tsuba.

I personally don't think that the shippo type patterns look anything like the constellation pattern.

 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

If we look at the detail of tsuba above posted by @MauroP (recognised as the Big Dipper constellation) and compare it to the “constellation” on Dans tsuba we can see that they are very nearly the same.

Hmmmm…..I’m tending to agree with Dan.

I’m fairly sure that the tsuba artists were not star gazers and thus minor differences in how the same constellation gets depicted can be expected/tolerated.

[Matsunoki]

…..and  although I am no astronomer, it would seem that the NBTHK are wrong in identifying the constellation on the tsuba shown by @MauroP as being the big dipper. It looks exactly like the “Little Dipper” to me……..with the Ken roughly  where the pole star would be expected.

 

 

[FlorianB]

Please note that the european constellations are not the same as those in far east!

Here's an old constellation map - alas I don't know where it comes from because the picture was hidden in the depth of my data.

But please refer to these constellations when talking about star motifes on Tsuba.

 

 

Edited July 3 by FlorianB

[Matsunoki]

11 minutes ago, FlorianB said:

Please note that the european constellations are not the same as those in far east!

Hi Florian, I stand more chance of unaided  flight  than I do understanding that map!

But surely the stars do not move around? The constellations are the same wherever they are viewed from?

I am simply comparing what is on that tsuba to the Little Dipper…..and the match looks very near, almost exact ….would you agree?

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

The weblink below is a monthly star chart guide to constellations and star patterns visible in Japan.

It may be of interest.

https://www.nao.ac.jp/en/gallery/chart-list.html

 

 

Also, I put the question to AI of what constellations are visible to the naked eye in Japan. 

 

The answer is shown below- 

 

“Because Japan shares similar latitudes with the rest of the Northern Hemisphere, stargazers can view nearly all northern constellations year-round. Constellations change with the seasons, with summer and winter offering the clearest, brightest skies. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] 

 

Key Constellations by Season 

 

Summer: The Summer Triangle dominates the night sky, made up of the bright stars Vega (in Lyra), Deneb (in Cygnus), and Altair (in Aquila). You can also spot Scorpius low on the southern horizon, recognizable by its red supergiant star, Antares. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] 

 

Autumn: The skies cool down to reveal the Great Square of Pegasus. 

 Andromeda and Perseus are also easily visible, and from very dark skies, you can spot the Andromeda Galaxy with the naked eye. [1] 

 

Winter: Winter provides some of the most spectacular viewing, featuring Orion (the Hunter) and his belt, and the dogs Canis Major (home to Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky) and Canis Minor. You can also clearly see Taurus and Gemi 

 

Spring: You can look for Ursa Major (the Big Dipper) swinging high overhead, which acts as a helpful pointer to the North Star in Ursa Minor. Leo (the Lion) is also prominent. [1, 2, 3, 4]   

 

Iconic Asterisms   

Subaru (The Pleiades): While technically an open star cluster in the constellation Taurus, this is arguably Japan's most famous naked-eye celestial sight. The cluster is known locally as Subaru (meaning "to unite") and is instantly recognizable.   

 

The Milky Way: The radiant band of the Milky Way is clearly visible to the naked eye throughout the summer and early fall. [1, 2, 3, 4]” 

 

[Scogg]

I believe what Florian is saying; is that while the stars are the same, the patterns that are recognized between cultures may be different. 

What to us might be the "big dipper", to another culture from 200 years ago, might be just a small section of a larger constellation. 

Regards,
-Sam

[Dan tsuba]

So, in response to Sam's post above-

 

Yes, I am sure that the constellations had different names in the Edo period of Japan and some of their constellation patterns of stars was different than the Greek constellations. 

 

But, there are just some star patterns that can’t be mistaken (or misinterpreted) no matter what their name (and like I stated in another post on this thread-25 years ago astronomy was my main hobby with my 5 telescopes!).

 

I asked AI the following question- 

 

“cassiopeia constellation in edo Japan” 

 

The answer is below- 

 

“In Edo-period Japan (1603–1868), the northern constellation Cassiopeia was primarily interpreted through the lens of imported Chinese astronomy and Myōken worship (the deified Pole Star). Because of its distinct zig-zag shape, it also became a localized cultural symbol in arts and landscape design. 

 

The Celestial Context in Edo Japan 

 

Sino-Japanese Star Maps: The Japanese adopted the Chinese system of asterisms. In these historical charts, the stars of Cassiopeia were incorporated into larger celestial walls and palaces, such as the Huagai (The Canopy) and Gedao (The Flying Road across the River). [1, 2] 

 

Myōken Faith: To many samurai and commoners, the northern circumpolar skies held deep religious meaning. Myōken (the deified North Star/Big Dipper) was a revered figure. Because Cassiopeia rotates closely around the celestial pole, it was a tied to these essential navigational and spiritual poles of heaven. [1, 2, 3, 4] 

 

Western Influence: During the later Edo period, the eighth Shogun, Tokugawa Yoshimune, loosened restrictions on foreign books. Through the Dutch trading post in Dejima, Western star catalogs (including Ptolemy's Greek constellations) entered Japan, introducing the myth of the "Queen of Aethiopia" to Japanese astronomers. 

 

Cultural Symbolism and Gardens 

 

Ryoan-ji Temple: One of the most famous cultural applications is the interpretation of the rock garden at Ryōan-ji in Kyoto. Some architectural and garden historians have noted that the strategic placement of the 15 stones in the Zen garden acts as a mirrored reflection of the Cassiopeia constellation. [1, 2] 

 

Art and Literature: In the ukiyo-e and literary traditions of the Edo period, stars were intimately tied to seasons. The continual movement of circumpolar stars like Cassiopeia across the northern sky was utilized for both agricultural and horological timing.” 

 

 

[Scogg]

Indeed, I was less thinking about the names, and more considering the stars themselves. Why stop or start where our constellations stop or start? Constellations are surrounded by other stars, are they not?

 

Although, I concede, it does look like the Big Dipper was at least recognized the same as how we see it. Image below from linked article.

https://www.cultureandcosmos.org/pdfs/10/15_Meri_Arichi.pdf

 

[Matsunoki]

Warning……rabbit hole approaching!….or maybe a black hole?

Engage maximum reverse warp.

Sorry…..the red wine effect.

Dan…..I agree with you but it’s just my irrelevant opinion🙂

 

[Dan tsuba]

Something I used a long, long, time ago to see a galaxy far, far, away!

Star Wars!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

But, you can see the Big Dipper, the Little Dipper, Cassiopeia, the Pleiades (and all the other constellations) with the naked eye!

I am certain that the supposedly shippo pattern tsuba with the holes and slots (as shown in previous posts above) are star maps showing constellations.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

The constellations are the same wherever they are viewed from?

Not as seen from the Southern hemisphere - we don't see some at all, while you "Northerners" won't see some we take for granted.  The Southern Cross for instance - unless you live in Southern Texas and Florida, the most southerly islands of Japan, Europe not at all! It can only be seen south of roughly 25°N latitude. [Trivia: but the last time Southern Europeans saw the Southern Cross was 2,000 years ago due to the precession of the equinoxes] And lets not forget the constellations will appear upside down and flipped left to right! It must be very odd at the equator  

 

Edited July 4 by Spartancrest
typo

[Bugyotsuji]

Don't have the details with me right now but I read part of a travelogue of a young Japanese who travelled to India around 1625 and reported having seen the Southern Cross. (Can look them up if necessary)

 

By the way, for those who haven't yet noticed it, stars in Japan were represented as round (white) polka dots, not the pointed star twinkly things that we subconsciously draw when requested.