translation Translation help needed on koshirae set

[buchtas]

Hi, sorry to bother

I have found signatures on some pieces of the koshirae I am taking care of and would love to know the translation of it. To my eye it looks like the signatures are similiar with some characters being different piece to piece. 

4th picture is a kozuka back side.

Overall it is truly a beautifull set with my favorite wave theme so I had to include the whole picture. And to be clear this one is not mine. It is a museum piece I am cleaning because for past 100 years or so it was not touched and had whole surface gunked up by old wax coatings or oils and such. 

 

Any help would be greately appreciated.

 

Best regards,

 

Martin 

 

 

Cheers

 

[peterd]

Omori Teruhide .  Big name , looks good. However faked very very often.

[Bugyotsuji]

英秀

Ōmori Yoshihide/Eishū

[MauroP]

Signature, kaō and workmanship seem all compatible with a true Teruhide tsuba. I'm more doubtful about the other pieces

 

[MauroP]

17 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

英秀

Ōmori Yoshihide/Eishū

Yoshihide  義英 * 芳英 * 美英 * 宜秀 * 敬英

[Bugyotsuji]

Oops, yes, thanks Mauro (and Peter)!

[buchtas]

2 hours ago, MauroP said:

Signature, kaō and workmanship seem all compatible with a true Teruhide tsuba. I'm more doubtful about the other pieces

 

So does that mean that it is possible that the signsture on other pieces was added later? Is it possible that it was made by his workshop and justcsogned by someone else with his name? Unless it was faked in period, there zero to very slim chance of this blade and koshirae getting into fakers hands and just adding 2 more signatures. Because overall, quality is consistent through out the whole koshirae. 

Is there any resource to read some more about teruhide in question?

Otherwise thanks a lot for translation.

[buchtas]

And I mean I noticed differences in characters used between all 3 signatures, is that the reason enough to be doubtfull about it if it is authentic?

[Bugyotsuji]

People do put similar pieces together to create a Koshiraé.

Always keep a healthy measure of doubt in your mind as there are many fakes out there. If it really bothers you, get them papered by the NBTHK Tosogu board, and then have a good night’s sleep. 

Meantime. Maintain an open mind, enjoy the workmanship, and allow your inner eye to see and build up a case one way or the other.

[Matsunoki]

Can we see the actual workmanship/design on the other components please?

Looks a very nice koshirae with a popular theme. 

[buchtas]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Can we see the actual workmanship/design on the other components please?

Looks a very nice koshirae with a popular theme. 

Sure, I will add some I have taken pictures of

[buchtas]

[buchtas]

I might have to take a better picture with this detail but on the fuchi the carving behind the waves is extremely deep like at least 4 mm deep. That is super cool, but probably not visibile in this picture.

[buchtas]

[buchtas]

[buchtas]

Kojiri

[buchtas]

[Matsunoki]

If we ignore the question re authenticity of the Mei and just look at that stunning work…..it is absolutely beautiful and in my opinion just about the finest quality. Whoever made that en-suite set was staggeringly talented. 

As for the Mei…..others are far more qualified to offer an opinion because personally I never pay much attention to signatures…….but that  workmanship, well, it speaks for itself 

I only wish it was for sale🙂

 

[Exclus1ve]

If I'm not mistaken, the Omori Teruhide signature was also used by some of his students.
I don't think this set was made by Teruhide himself. His works are renowned for their more refined and delicate finish. I've seen several authenticated Omori examples, and in those cases there was no doubt at all about the attribution.

That said, this koshirae as a whole looks very interesting. Thank you for sharing it!

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, Exclus1ve said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Omori Teruhide signature was also used by some of his students.

Hi Victor

Without a doubt, the Omori signature was carved by a variety of different hands over the years and on a variety of different quality workmanship but to my eyes, which are old, this set looks like it is possibly by the same talented hand and was made as an en-suite set at the same time. I don’t think we know exactly what went on in some of these workshops….a bit like with swords….students signing work made by the master, students making and signing works with the masters name etc etc. I am also sceptical about the authentication of fittings. I have seen some dodgy stuff given Hozon and higher papers

In the Mei examples shown by Mauro above there a large number of obvious differences in various kanji. I am not sure if they are all meant to be Teruhide “authenticated” or just a random selection of Omori mei. 
Victor, you have a great eye……do you think they are by the same hand or by various Omori “students” working to pull together a wonderful koshirae within an acceptable timeframe. For a single artist to make all of these would indeed take a very long time if working alone.

[Robert S]

Stunning!  Whether Omori Teruhide or one or more of his students, who-ever (singular or plural) did that work was seriously talented - not only the quality of the workmanship, but also the quality of the design.  I suspect that as with similar products from western traditional workshops, asking who actually made it within a workshop led by a great master is probably meaningless.  There were probably many hands - specialists in one or more areas of work - being directed by the master.  We tend to think more in the post renaissance western art paradigm - the solitary great artist.  But it's not necessarily the way that a master with a strong team would work.  I do wonder if the character variations actually indicate the lead hand on each piece.

[buchtas]

Amazing hear multiple sides. My question would be, when was the "hay day" so to speak for the fake signatures? Did they říše after Edo period ended? Before 2nd World war? After? When would the possibility of the fake signature be highest? Since this blade was in Czech Republic then Austria Hungary probably for more than 170 years or at least 120...

Given his active period, when the blade was forged and then the move to bohemia with some royalty that visited the lamd of the rising sun. Educated guess for it would be around the time the Successor to the throne Franz Ferdinand d'este visited Japan in 1893 and someone from his entourage, probably same case as with the navy officer who had a Japanese blade fitted to his golden saber fittings I posted some time ago. There is also quite a lot of different Japanese swords in czech castles that belonged to the nobility. 

Edited 18 hours ago by buchtas

[buchtas]

4 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

People do put similar pieces together to create a Koshiraé.

Always keep a healthy measure of doubt in your mind as there are many fakes out there. If it really bothers you, get them papered by the NBTHK Tosogu board, and then have a good night’s sleep. 

Meantime. Maintain an open mind, enjoy the workmanship, and allow your inner eye to see and build up a case one way or the other.

Oh yeah, dont let me start about fakes of... well... everything. Good thing to be able to examine original stuff to compare possible fakes to.

It does not bother me personally 😆 I am simply gathering data on an interesting subject, semi research.

Unfortunately for this piece, shinsa is nigh impossible to happen ever.

[Matsunoki]

Imo “fake” is the wrong word especially regarding this koshirae. The quality is too good.

A better phrase would be “school of Teruhide” ie to recognise that we cannot be totally sure how many artists were involved. Whoever they were they were collaborating on making this set. None of the Mei on this have been added later. There is no fakery involved.

As for the hay day…..dubious signatures have been a feature of most aspects of Japanese Art throughout history going back many hundreds of years. That includes swords and the associated fittings.

As soon as a “genius” appeared on the scene others (often with considerable talent) started to “copy”, often while the genius was still alive and working! Sometimes it is obvious that a piece cannot be “right” but other times it is not quite so straightforward.

It is an aspect of Japanese Art that we have to live with. It frustrates many, doesn’t bother me.🙂

(quality is quality)

 

[Exclus1ve]

 

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Hi Victor

Without a doubt, the Omori signature was carved by a variety of different hands

Hello!
I think they are the work of different craftsmen. Of course, a proper assessment would require detailed photographs from multiple angles. However, when we are talking about the work of a master craftsman such as Teruhide, the standards the master set for his own work were considerably higher.

This particular example is not flawless, either in terms of the katakiribori or in the execution of the waves themselves. The carving - specifically the thickness of the lines and the cutting angles - varies from one line to another. 

I agree that signatures are often of limited help when establishing authorship, but in the case of an Omori signature, I would always evaluate the workmanship itself before considering the signature.

This is not to say that this koshirae is of poor quality - not at all (sometimes I feel as though I am unintentionally insulting other craftsmen when I make such comparisons). It is simply that everything is relative, and the works of artists of such renown are on yet another level.

I have noticed that many people here do not recognize the difference between a truly great work and a merely very good one. For many, Joi is Joi - what difference does it make, the work is good anyway)) But that is not the correct way to look at it.

All the works with complex compositions from master-master are almost flawless or flawless. And yes, there are not so many such masters, but you will see these works immediately, even without a signature.

 

[Brian]

It is absolutely stunning work. I agree with Colin. Wow...a real privilege to see it.

[MauroP]

3 hours ago, buchtas said:

Oh yeah, dont let me start about fakes of... well... everything. Good thing to be able to examine original stuff to compare possible fakes to.

In the Edo period, gimei was not always interpreted according to the modern Western distinction between authentic and fake, but was part of a cultural system where imitation, transmission of tradition, genealogical prestige, and commercial value were deeply intertwined. This perspective emerges particularly clearly from Kameda-Madar's studies on the practice of utsushi. It would likely be of interest to more than one member of the NMB.

https://www.academia.edu/10385390/Copying_and_Theory_in_Edo_Period_Japan_1615_1868_

[buchtas]

Well, this was very rich discussion with great points made here.

To clarify I was not necessarily looking for authentication of the signatures, even if I phrased it that way. I was looking some facts about the presented koshirae and its parts. Something that can be written down about the piece and recorded.

Maybye one thing to ask, since the signsturess differ slightly, do they say the same name in the end ? Like does it mean the same name or are there different translations with the different kanji used there? Just checking if all say the same name or not.

 

I have enjoyed looking at this koshirae, it is really well made, also taking pictures and looking at them later they dont do the  craftsmanship justice it deserves. In person it is conplety different, it feels, more. I guess, cant think of anything else to say about it 😆

Love the wave theme and this great.

Really cool that the collection has this good quality piece, compared to the rest, there are 4 nihonto in total + 1 in Austrian fittings and 2 NCR guntos. Not much but it is not the focus/goal of the institution to get more Japanese swords. We are happy with what we got.

 

Thank you everyone for all the input here.

Much appreciated 

[Bugyotsuji]

They all say the same name, written in sometimes markedly differing styles.

 

Thank you for showing us this fine creative/collaborative work.

[buchtas]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

They all say the same name, written in sometimes markedly differing styles.

 

Thank you for showing us this fine creative/collaborative work.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought so, just asked to be sure.