jdawg221 Posted April 18 Report Posted April 18 (edited) Could use some help identifying this shinshinto sword. Hamon reminds me of shinshinto ishido school, but it has ko itame hada rather than masame, and the nakago jiri is throwing me for a loop. Any ideas? Fyi the boshi is rather hard to see(seems the previous togishi didn't do a great job burnishing it) but it is present. Edited April 18 by jdawg221 Quote
jdawg221 Posted April 18 Author Report Posted April 18 Here are more pics. Sword isn't suriage and doesn't appear to be machiokuri either. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 Jonathan, a BOSHI is never burnished, and yours looks o.k. The blade is generally in fine condition. The HAMON looks like an oil quenched one, so if I am correct, it is a machine-made WW II military blade. 1 Quote
jdawg221 Posted April 19 Author Report Posted April 19 1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said: Jonathan, a BOSHI is never burnished, and yours looks o.k. The blade is generally in fine condition. The HAMON looks like an oil quenched one, so if I am correct, it is a machine-made WW II military blade. Do you have any examples of oil quenched showato that look similar to this? I have owned one before and it quite literally looked nothing like this. 1 Quote
Hokke Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 I cant show you any showato that look like, but I can show you a modern steel that has been oil quenched Quote
jdawg221 Posted April 19 Author Report Posted April 19 I see. How does this sword stick out as an oil quenched showato? It has a nagasa of 71cm and I bought it from giheiya in case you are wondering. Quote
Geraint Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 (edited) Dear Jonathan. Just a couple of things to consider. The last photograph in your first post shows what looks like a hamon with no discernable activity and spots in the top of the gunome. Both these features might be seen on an oil temepred blade, specifically Showato. However your sword has yakidashi, a feature that I have not noted on Showa blades. You mention that the sword does not have masame hada which puzzles me, certain specific schools do have this hada but from Shinto it is usually evident in the shinogi ji whereas other forms of hada are evident below the shinogi. If you can discern ko itame hada on your blade does this run over into the shinogi ji? It might be useful to know what you can see in the boshi, is it midare komi? With the sword in hand what activities can you see in the hamon? For an oil quenched sword one would expect none, but that could also be a feature of a Shinshinto sword so this may not help. All this assumes that the sword did not come with papers but if it did please tell us what that says.I am looking forward to other opinions on this one. All the best. Edited April 19 by Geraint 1 Quote
Brian Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 When I look at this, I get an immediate feel of wartime Showato, the nakago emphasizes that. It's not so much a "because of this and this and this..." but a general gut feel you get over time. I honestly think this is wartime and oil quenched, but could be wrong. The thing to look for is nie and activity. That said, oil quenched still comes in many forms, there are hybrid construction methods that are in between, forged and folded but from mill steel, or semi handmade or a bit of both etc etc. So it could easily be one of these, and lately it is not unusual to find them in Japan, with torokusho...sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" thing that is becoming more prevalent. 3 Quote
ROKUJURO Posted Sunday at 02:33 PM Report Posted Sunday at 02:33 PM Jonathan, There is still another thought: The seller could not advertise the sword as wartime blade as these a not allowed in Japan. So perhaps he chose a more "creative" description. Quote
jdawg221 Posted Sunday at 05:43 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 05:43 PM Here's a link to the original listing: https://giheiya.com/product/01-2311/ Quote
ROKUJURO Posted Sunday at 06:48 PM Report Posted Sunday at 06:48 PM Well, they have seen the blade in-hand, which is much better than photos. Do you see HADA? Do you see KINSUJI? If yes, I am wrong and it is not machine-made. Quote
jdawg221 Posted Sunday at 08:41 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 08:41 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said: Well, they have seen the blade in-hand, which is much better than photos. Do you see HADA? Do you see KINSUJI? If yes, I am wrong and it is not machine-made. Im rather certain the ko itame hada is pretty obvious in multiple photos that I shared. I do see what I believe is kinsuji, however I could be wrong on that. Also the dark peaks of the hamon seem to be composed of black nie. With this information, what shinshinto(or even shinto) schools come to mind? Edited Sunday at 08:41 PM by jdawg221 Quote
ROKUJURO Posted Sunday at 09:35 PM Report Posted Sunday at 09:35 PM Jonathan, HATARAKIMONO (features) in traditionally made Japanese blades should be visible without magnification. As the name says, KINSUJI should be streaks of NIE, appearing golden. But I have to admit that many of these features are difficult to capture in photos. I don't know black NIE. Quote
jdawg221 Posted Sunday at 11:22 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 11:22 PM 1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said: Jonathan, HATARAKIMONO (features) in traditionally made Japanese blades should be visible without magnification. As the name says, KINSUJI should be streaks of NIE, appearing golden. But I have to admit that many of these features are difficult to capture in photos. I don't know black NIE. You can see the hada in multiple pictures that I sent. Here's another one just in case. Also isn't chikei referred to as black nie? Quote
jdawg221 Posted Sunday at 11:46 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 11:46 PM 15 hours ago, Geraint said: Dear Jonathan. Just a couple of things to consider. The last photograph in your first post shows what looks like a hamon with no discernable activity and spots in the top of the gunome. Both these features might be seen on an oil temepred blade, specifically Showato. However your sword has yakidashi, a feature that I have not noted on Showa blades. You mention that the sword does not have masame hada which puzzles me, certain specific schools do have this hada but from Shinto it is usually evident in the shinogi ji whereas other forms of hada are evident below the shinogi. If you can discern ko itame hada on your blade does this run over into the shinogi ji? It might be useful to know what you can see in the boshi, is it midare komi? With the sword in hand what activities can you see in the hamon? For an oil quenched sword one would expect none, but that could also be a feature of a Shinshinto sword so this may not help. All this assumes that the sword did not come with papers but if it did please tell us what that says.I am looking forward to other opinions on this one. All the best. Hi! The boshi seems to be a combo of kaen and midare komi. The hada does not appear in the shinogi, which I assume is due to how it is polish. Here are natural lighting pics of the sword. Quote
jdawg221 Posted Sunday at 11:48 PM Author Report Posted Sunday at 11:48 PM (edited) Here are more. Thank you for all replying! Edited Sunday at 11:49 PM by jdawg221 Quote
jdawg221 Posted Monday at 12:00 AM Author Report Posted Monday at 12:00 AM And here is some of the boshi. Looks midare komi Quote
ChrisW Posted Monday at 06:14 AM Report Posted Monday at 06:14 AM (edited) Not meaning to muddy the waters here... But there is nashiji hada aka "pear skin" and several other forms of densely forged hada. As well as mu-hada "no hada". All three can appear very frequently in Shinshinto blades. This one might be a good candidate for Shinsa, just to get an expert opinion on the hada alone! Edited Monday at 06:58 AM by ChrisW 3 1 Quote
noneed2hate Posted Thursday at 03:45 AM Report Posted Thursday at 03:45 AM (edited) Looks Shinshinto to me, looks like possibly Chikuzen or similar to the example of Koyama Munetsugu-den in the Connoisseurs book IMO Edited Thursday at 03:46 AM by noneed2hate 2 1 Quote
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