tsuba ID challenge

[GRC]

Ok I posted this somewhere else, but the membership in both locations is probably different even though there will be some obvious overlap. We'll see... it's my first time trying it.  

 

Up for a challenge?

Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to the attributions for each of these three tsuba?

They each got a specific attribution from different sources (and one of the members here is the source for one of them), but I'm curious to see what you might suggest for each. This isn't an attempt to pass judgement on anyone's "knowledge", it's an attempt to open a discussion and have some fun with it.

Feel free to hazard a guess on any or all of them #1,2,3.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Two NISHIGAKI on the right, an AKASAKA on the left?

What do I win in case I am correct?

[GRC]

Hard to really know if there is a verifiable "correct" on any of these anyway... so who knows 

Well one has a stronger "most likely correct" than the others... I'll explain later.

 

Solid guesses though Jean  (not that I'm saying they are "correct" or not...yet)  

 

[zanilu]

I will be wrong for sure, not my field of study, but since I am not scared to play the fool :

 

#1 Nishigaki

#2 Akasaka

#3 Owari

 

Ready to be corrected. 

 

Luca

 

[Spartancrest]

Well not this one anyway!    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/188197194660  big money! $47 

[MauroP]

I'm not about to play since I know the book where the first tsuba was taken (but I'm not so sure the attribution proposed by the book is correct indeed). The sekigane which broaden the seppa-dai could suggest that the first tsuba is the oldest... 

[GRC]

@MauroP I'm with you on the attribution... it is one family's recounting of an item that was apparently passed down through multiple generations, so who knows what kind of embellishments were added onto the lore surrounding this piece as the years went by... like grandpa's fishing story where both the fish and the waves keep getting bigger ever time he retells the story  But the claim does line up with that smith's plate texture, so maybe a grain of truth?

 

I also agree that the first one is likely the oldest, and everyone so far seems to be picking up on it as well. 

The third one does appear to have a much smoother surface, and looks to be more black compared to the first two. 

[GRC]

Ok, I suppose there aren't any more people willing to offer a hypothesis, or everyone else is somewhat in agreement with what has already been stated, or just don't know...

 

#1 Apparently made by Higo's Hayashi Matashichi (It's published in the Gustav Jacoby Collection... and if I am reading this google translation correctly, it was once in the possession of the Hosokawa and Nishigaki lineages up until the late 19th century.

 

 

#2 NBTHK papers to ko-Akasaka (lacking in any sort of useful detail, as usual...)

Google translation:

No. 4015180

Certificate of authenticity

1. Tsuba (sword guard) with openwork design of ginger and wild goose motifs, unsigned, Old Akasaka.

Chrysanthemum-shaped iron base with openwork, rounded rim.

The item on the right has been authenticated as a preserved sword fitting by our association as a result of our examination, and this is certified.

May 28, 2019 Japanese Art Sword Preservation Association

  

 

#3 Nishigaki Kanshiro (according to a hakogaki by Sasano. This one is posted on tsuba.info and is listed as 2nd generation Kanshiro in the section on Higo tsuba.

I was given the info through messaging with the owner of the tsuba, but I don't have any images to post of the hakogaki.

I was also informed that this one has some signs of slight layer separation, opening the door to a possible Akasaka connection

 

 

And just to muddy the waters.. here's yet another, actually closest to # 2 in that it has the larger proportioned hitsu-ana.

#4 It's in the Owari section of Tsuba Shusei (the elephant book), and it describes it as: 

65. Myoga and Chidori – A tsuba with a nice texture in a central recess. In an older style. Seppa-dai 3mm, kakumiri 6mm.

 

 

And just to blur things even more... here's one from illustrations of ancient tsuba on uchigatana, by Keichiro Yokota

#5 attributed to Myochin 

it's back to the smaller sized hitsu-ana but it has some alternate motifs at the top and bottom of the seppa-dai (instead of myoga/ginger), and a few other small embellishments in the way the sukashi elements were chiseled.

 

So to sum up... a mish mash of attributions due to some overlapping  physical features between schools and smiths.

So we have published attributions and hakogaki to Higo's Matashichi and Kanshiro, ko-Akasaka, as well as Owari and Myochin.

Then I also got some suggestions elsewhere for Kariganeya Hikobe as well.

 

So the answer is ... still to be determined I suppose 

[FlorianB]

I had already considered it myself, without coming to a conclusion.

Because of the many reproductions of a trendy design it is difficult to determine a school by pictures alone. 
Maybe the pieces in hand would narrow down a decision.

[Spartancrest]

An "Owari"    you might notice the birds are inverted - pointing towards the seppa-dai rather than the mimi.   

https://www.choshuya.co.jp/senrigan/抱茗荷雁金透鍔（鐔）　無銘　尾張/鍔/尾張

 

Afew in this older thread https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44479-wild-geese-in-the-clouds/

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Spartancrest
More history

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

your post implies an important question to me: In what direction do the KARIGANE fly when they are depicted that way?

I always assumed the LONGER body part was the tail. Am I wrong?

And there are more TSUBA with similar design out there! One from my little collection - no idea where to locate that one!
 

[MauroP]

There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent. [Mao Zedong]

Maybe the pieces in hand would narrow down a decision? Nope! It isn't science, it's a kind of kult. The experts don't consent even on the kind of birds... (clearly karigane, not chidori, IMHO).

[Bugyotsuji]

Now you have put the cat among the pigeons, Mauro.

 

 

[Lewis B]

Did someone ruffle his feathers?

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

cat among the pigeons

 

  Well maybe a Cheshire cat amongst the karigane! 

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Mauro,

of course KARIGANE! I don't know why I mixed that up.

The question remains: In what direction do they fly?

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

it looks like a ginger cat to me!

[Bugyotsuji]

Maybe fit onto this Nakago?

 

[MauroP]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

The question remains: In what direction do they fly?

Looking for auspices ("auspices" means "looking at birds") in tosogu is almost as varied as it is in nature. Birds may fly centripetally, centrifugally, or in circles (sometimes in the same direction, or occasionally in opposite directions).
A brief treatise on “Tsuba Augury”:

 

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Mauro,

I did not formulate my question properly. When KARIGANE are depicted as small symbols, where is their head and where is their tail, respectively? I am afraid I got this wrong in my interpretation, probably the longer body part is the head/neck?
 

In a more naturalistic depiction, it is easy, like on this one below:

[GRC]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

I did not formulate my question properly. When KARIGANE are depicted as small symbols, where is their head and where is their tail, respectively? I am afraid I got this wrong in my interpretation, probably the longer body part is the head/neck?

 

Well, now that you've brought the chidori/karigane issue into question, it's seems like an interesting question that I personally had never considered in this way before. I just always assumed the arc of the wings was the only factor that I ever considered in terms of "flight direction".

But maybe your naturalistic goose tsuba might suggest the possibility of a forward facing arc for the wings of geese in flight?

 

Also the head and body of some of these tsuba are relative short and stumpy while on others they are longer and more tapered.

Is it just differences in craftmanship or actually supposed to be a different kind of bird?

 

By the way, you weren't the only one to think "chidori" because some of the attributions I posted above did mention chidori rather than geese. I just outright discounted those statements as false and went with my gut that was telling me "geese". 

[GRC]

11 hours ago, MauroP said:

There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent. [Mao Zedong]

Maybe the pieces in hand would narrow down a decision? Nope! It isn't science, it's a kind of kult. The experts don't consent even on the kind of birds... (clearly karigane, not chidori, IMHO).

 

Mauro, your sentiment basically captures one of the principal driving forces in posting this thread in the first place. 

It's a thought that can't be ignored the more you go down the rabbit hole of trying to sort out the mess of attributions and sometimes outlandish papers that exist (yes, even the new ones... not just the old green ones).

 

Another point that really needs consideration is that the classification system itself is inadequate when it comes to assigning attributions.

That's exactly why attributions seems to be subject to whims and fads and "cultism" of sorts. 

As the system stands at the moment, it's far far away from being a "science".

 

It's only by gathering more evidence and really gathering up a strong database that we'll be able to do enough comparative analysis to really break things down into proper groupings and many more "sub-groupings" than currently exist. Some of these sub-groupings may never get a genuine name to hang on them, but I genuinely feel that could slowly tease out some more specific attributions that could even point to a specific smith's work (regardless of whether they fall under a larger category's umbrella or just shows an "influence" from one or more groups).

But hopefully we can put together enough visual resources to point to see to say, "yup this is one of that guy's pieces".

 

One day... 

but I sincerely hope we can all start slowly chipping away at it, one grouping at a time.

[GRC]

Back to direction of the wings... ughhh I give up LOL 

Sometimes they appear to have their wings arcing forward, especially when they seem to be taking a power stroke to get going:

 

But then most of time they appear to have their wings arced backward, especially when they seem to be coasting/gliding:

 

 

And there is also viewing angle and perspective to factor into it, which could alter the viewer's perception... so, um 

 

[GRC]

Oh and back to schools issue...pertaining to these specific tsuba.

 

There was a significant amount of overlap and cross-pollination, including direct contact between smiths among the Akasaka, Tosa Myochin and a strong stylistic pull for both of those groups toward the Higo Kanshiro, so it's no wonder all these tsuba have very similar characteristics, but are getting all these different labels.

 

Even some late Edo period Tosa smiths were known to work in an earlier ko-Akasaka style (but usually with their own twist, rather than just doing rote utsushi copies). 

 

There's a really interesting and informative article that describes the detailed nature of this stylistic "entanglement":

A Story of the Tosa - Myôchin 土佐 明珍

By Mark Ceskavich

JSSUS Newsletter Volume 50, no.3, 2018

 

[ROKUJURO]

15 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

An "Owari"  -  you might notice the birds are inverted - pointing towards the seppa-dai rather than the mimi. .....

I was referring to Dale's post above. Maybe we can find out how it is thought to be seen the Japanese way.

[MauroP]

Love the discussion, although I’m not very confident that we can eventually arrive at a solid understanding of tsuba attribution to a specific school. So, let’s get back to the details, which may become clearer as our thinking progresses. Let’s try to move from naturalistic to more abstract representations of wild geese:

 

Now it’s quite clear how the more abstract pattern is oriented.