Tameshigiri Evidence on Monouchi?

[Jnuzzo]

I’m digging into my first clean nihonto, and am finding some things that are leaving me with questions, so I’m asking here the ones that I can’t find clear answers for on my own.  
 

Tonight’s question is what the remnants of tameshigiri testing looks like on the monouchi section of a blade?

 

This blade I’m looking at appears edo period, was fitted in very fine late edo koshirae, is on the very long / wide / heavy end of the katana spectrum, and is pretty clean except for a few small nicks at the monouchi area combined with a corresponding section of dense scratches in that area that are entirely uniformly perpendicular to the cutting edge.  

It’s also a WW2 US vet trophy.  
 

It definitely looks like someone cut hard on a strike or two with this thing, but only in the monouchi area … so I’m wondering if someone got too playful with it during the war and happened to know the sweet spot to strike with, or if someone did test-cutting with it pre-war?

 

Any thoughts  n opinions appreciated.  Couple photos attached.  

 

thx, Jeff

 

[eternal_newbie]

Before the war it would probably have been a family blade so this likely happened during the war - or after it (unfortunately not all owners of cool-looking antiquities can be trusted to not take a swing at a pool noodle, cardboard box or water jug). I've also seen anecdotes of treasure blades that were being used to trim weeds or chop unruly branches before someone knowledgeable managed to rescue them.

[Jnuzzo]

13 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

Before the war it would probably have been a family blade so this likely happened during the war - or after it (unfortunately not all owners of cool-looking antiquities can be trusted to not take a swing at a pool noodle, cardboard box or water jug). I've also seen anecdotes of treasure blades that were being used to trim weeds or chop unruly branches before someone knowledgeable managed to rescue them.

The ol’ “let’s see what this’ll chop” syndrome lol.  
 

I guess what caught me on it was if I were a dude who knew nothing about swords or physics and wanted to chop something for fun, I’d hit it with the meat of the blade, not the monouchi.
 

Or I’d give it repeated strikes, or my buddies would want a swing too, but not have enough control to land em all within a 6-7” section of the blade.  
 

I don’t know what scratches on a polished blade look like after cutting something either so figured I’d see if someone knew or had an example.  

[eternal_newbie]

5 minutes ago, Jnuzzo said:

I were a dude who knew nothing about swords or physics and wanted to chop something for fun, I’d hit it with the meat of the blade, not the monouchi.

 

Someone who's played baseball would probably try to hit it with the monouchi, like you would to get a good homer.

 

But yeah - this is pretty much exactly what scratches from cutting look like. If it was a blade deemed important enough to test pre-war, it would likely have been given a light polish to remove the scuffing, if not the nicks - this is what leads me to believe it was done during the war, or after it.

 

EDIT: one other possibility is that if the blade really is late Edo period, it could have been involved in a fight during the Bakumatsu era.

[Jnuzzo]

2 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Someone who's played baseball would probably try to hit it with the monouchi, like you would to get a good homer.

 

But yeah - this is pretty much exactly what scratches from cutting look like.

I forgot all about baseball … “this sword chopped a baseball clean in half at Iwo Jima” … that’s my story n I’m sticking to it lmao

[PNSSHOGUN]

Looks typical of amateur sharpening or cutting of abrasive items. 

[Toki]

6 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Looks typical of amateur sharpening

I agree, looks like angle grinder 😅

[Tcat]

Hi, from my experience these look exactly like the results of tameshigiri, specifically cutting tatami. A single cut usually only leaves a few minor scratches, so unless the targets were particularly sandy I would guess this sword has seen a few cutting sessions.

[Jnuzzo]

1 hour ago, Toki said:

I agree, looks like angle grinder 😅

First thing I thought when I saw it and subsequently wanted to swing it at something myself lol.  But the angles aren’t right for a grinder and scratches aren’t deep at all, just plentiful.  
 

I thought maybe buffing wheel, as there are signs of corrosion in that area, but the spots on the shinogi-ji weren’t worked.  Only a handful of the scratches carry over the shinogi.  The scratches that do carry over made me think no to sharpening, as the stone wouldn’t roll over the shinogi like that.  
 

Noticed the three to four edge nicks in that section, and thought maybe someone could have been practice or test cutting with it.  But I don’t know what that looks like entirely.  

Edited Monday at 04:44 PM by Jnuzzo

[Jnuzzo]

7 hours ago, Tcat said:

Hi, from my experience these look exactly like the results of tameshigiri, specifically cutting tatami. A single cut usually only leaves a few minor scratches, so unless the targets were particularly sandy I would guess this sword has seen a few cutting sessions.

I’m finding mixed info on whether or not the boshi typically passes through tatami while properly cutting (and would show the respective scratches from it) … from your experience, do you know if it does / doesn’t?

[Toki]

7 hours ago, Tcat said:

Hi, from my experience these look exactly like the results of tameshigiri, specifically cutting tatami. A single cut usually only leaves a few minor scratches, so unless the targets were particularly sandy I would guess this sword has seen a few cutting sessions.

Interesting!
So far I have ony cut with modern chinese reproductions with modern steel, and even after a year of regular use the scratches are nowhere near that level. But maybe Tamahagane is a bit weaker in terms of material.

I would be too scared to cut with a nihonto anyways...too much money I could ruin.

[Katsujinken]

Those scratches look like they came from sandpaper or a tool of some kind. Like an amateur tried to repair or remove the results of some misadventures. 
 

I respectfully disagree with Alex. 
 

Scratches from tatami on wara are generally more subtle than this, so I don’t believe that’s what this is. They’re also a bit too close to the end of the blade in this case to reflect consistent use for tameshigiri. There’d be no need to do anything in the kissaki if the blade was used for actual tameshigiri practice. 

[Jnuzzo]

45 minutes ago, Katsujinken said:

Those scratches look like they came from sandpaper or a tool of some kind. Like an amateur tried to repair or remove the results of some misadventures. 
 

I respectfully disagree with Alex. 
 

Scratches from tatami on wara are generally more subtle than this, so I don’t believe that’s what this is. They’re also a bit too close to the end of the blade in this case to reflect consistent use for tameshigiri. There’d be no need to do anything in the kissaki if the blade was used for actual tameshigiri practice. 

54 minutes ago, Katsujinken said:

Those scratches look like they came from sandpaper or a tool of some kind. Like an amateur tried to repair or remove the results of some misadventures. 
 

I respectfully disagree with Alex. 
 

Scratches from tatami on wara are generally more subtle than this, so I don’t believe that’s what this is. They’re also a bit too close to the end of the blade in this case to reflect consistent use for tameshigiri. There’d be no need to do anything in the kissaki if the blade was used for actual tameshigiri practice. 

I ended up watching a bunch of tameshigiri demonstration videos, and on a lot of occasions the full kissaki does end up passing through the tatami or other materials.  But details / experience with tameshigiri are outside of my knowledge base.  
 

I’m a craftsman and metalworker though, and none of the abrasive methods / tools we use seem a match to what I’m seeing, which is what had me looking for other answers.  
 

The pattern and texture doesn’t match sandpaper, wet sand, angle grinder, buffing / grinding wheel, sharpening stones, files, wire brush, wire wheel, or any other abrasive tool that I can think of.  
 

I’m not too concerned about it as the blade could eventually use a polish anyway and the scratches are superficial, but curious to find a match for the cause

 

[Katsujinken]

“Misadventures” would include someone trying to do “tameshigiri” without proper training, but I really don’t think that’s what this is (and I have the experience to say this with confidence). Impossible to know for sure without a time machine though!
 

Notice how the scratches stop right at the shinogi — someone did this by hand with a goal in mind. 
 

But again, no time machine. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:40 AM by Katsujinken

[Tcat]

Hi All,

No offense at all taken regarding disagreements.

 

After about 5 years of consistent use, with a tameshigiri session every month or so, cutting 20-30 mats each time, with say roughly 4-5 cuts per mat, let's say for argument's sake roughly 5,500 cuts or so, my sword looks very much like this, albeit with the scratches more concentrated in the monouchi area. 

 

Yes Jeff, tip cuts are a thing and are practiced specifically in certain styles and by certain practitioners.

 

'Notice how the scratches stop right at the shinogi — someone did this by hand with a goal in mind.' Tameshigiri scratches do this also though. The pressure from the force/action of cutting is all focused onto both sides of the ji through the path of the cut, hence why the scratches are most prevelent there. The shinogi ji barely touches the target in the cut, because by the time it gets there, ji has forced all the material away from the blade...also worth noting is that the shinogi ji is burnished so is much harder to scratch deeply than the ji, hence the shinogi ji typically does not get as many scratches from tameshigiri.

 

In this case, there doesnt need to be any sandpaper involved - used tatami has in it ingrained many many little sharp bits of dust, dirt and SAND from peoples feet and daily use as a floor mat. This grit of all sorts stays inside the makiwara and scratches blades when they cut it. The scratches are identical.

Just my casual opinion looking at the blade, as a tameshigiri practitioner. I have no hesitation to say thats what caused it, but there certainly could have been some non-standard targets used.

[Hokke]

I have to agree with Alex on this one in absence of better pictures. Speaking as someone who has spent an embarrassing amount of money on tatami mats over the years, this pattern of wear can easily be the result of tameshigiri. That said, there are a number of alternative cutting mediums that could have contributed as well since tatami isnt "expensive" in the strictest sense of the word, but it sure isnt cheap, especially if you require them to be shipped. 

 

As for the placement of the wear, again, I would concur with Alex. There are two types of tameshigiri....first is to simply test the sword and its sharpness. The second is more practical where speed and placement are the focus and cutting through the mat is secondary. The fastest part of any blade is the tip.....and it also allows for maximum distance from your opponent..... there are several schools that focus on this type of training. 

[Jnuzzo]

Thanks for all the info and opinions.  
 

I’m more and more convinced that the bulk of the scratches are from tameshigiri use.  The practitioner easily could have also added some by hand.  Could have been some bamboo cutting in the mix as well.  
 

The pattern doesn’t match what you would see with sharpening or cleaning, as some scratches do carry over the shinogi, but not completely.  Some also only begin past the hamon.  
 

Some patterns are in slightly different directions, but are still in a direction of what a cut would be.  
 

Blade is long, wide, and heavy … would have been ideal for a practitioner.  
 

A few more detailed photos:

[ROKUJURO]

13 hours ago, Katsujinken said:

.....Scratches from tatami ..... They’re also a bit too close to the end of the blade in this case....

No, they are close to the tip of the blade. The "end" is the NAKAGO.

[Jnuzzo]

One more photo angle that looks to me like the blade was pushing through targets at speed, rather than being scuffed up by hand.  

[Katsujinken]

18 minutes ago, Jnuzzo said:

One more photo angle that looks to me like the blade was pushing through targets at speed, rather than being scuffed up by hand.  

 

Oh this photo is quite different in my opinion. Very helpful. Perhaps Alex saw more clearly than I did from the start.

 

I'm willing to move a bit on my point of view here — this could be from someone attempting tameshigiri, but I still harbor some doubts because the scratches appear in clumps. Regular tameshigiri practice, even by an amateur, creates a consistent area of wear. The "clean" areas we see here raise questions for me.

 

I'm still more than 50% confident that what we see here is due to what I called "misadventures" (including whacking unorthodox targets) than traditional tameshigiri, but everything others have said is totally fair.

[Jnuzzo]

Thanks for the educated input guys, my wife would have killed me if she caught me with a new sword, 900 mats, and 50 books trying to figure out how to do tameshigiri to figure it out myself lol.  
 

Last question - in your opinion if someone did a bunch of cuts post-WW2 with late edo koshirae on the blade, would it show?

 

Koshirai looks relatively untouched to me, is signed late edo, and the ray skin is cleanly dried out and shrunk.  I don’t see any signs of abuse, significant wear, or anything on the tsuka.  Only one mekugi-ana so I don’t believe the blade was refitted past this koshirai.  
 

My gut tells me that the ray skin at least would have cracked up a bit with a bunch of swings on hard targets if done any time recently, but ?

[ROKUJURO]

From the scratch marks on the blade, I think it is quite obvious that they were not caused by "professional" TAMESHIGIRI (which is not executed on TATAMI but on TATAMI OMOTE which is a very different thing).

These marks look - at least to me - as if they were inflicted to the blade by chopping or hacking green wood, possibly even green bamboo. I have only limited experience with classic TAMESHIGIRI, but I have seen comparable marks on machetes, KOSHI-NATA, Swiss "Gertel", and similar agricultural cutting tools after their use in the above described way. 

[Jnuzzo]

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

From the scratch marks on the blade, I think it is quite obvious that they were not caused by "professional" TAMESHIGIRI (which is not executed on TATAMI but on TATAMI OMOTE which is a very different thing).

These marks look - at least to me - as if they were inflicted to the blade by chopping or hacking green wood, possibly even green bamboo. I have only limited experience with classic TAMESHIGIRI, but I have seen comparable marks on machetes, KOSHI-NATA, Swiss "Gertel", and similar agricultural cutting tools after their use in the above described way. 

Overall the feeling I get is that the blade was repeatedly subjected to cutting some harsh materials.  Bamboo seems like a fit in-part.  
 

Possibly even bent and straightened in / after the process.  
 

I have to look deeper / more thoroughly but I see evidence for at least 6 different harsh cuts.  
 

My gut says someone pushed this thing late edo timeframe and I’m looking at the fallout from that intentionally destructive endeavor.  
 

Blade is gimei Okimasa (I’ve analyzed the mei pretty thoroughly and it’s obvious gimei to me) … but it’s still pretty impressively crafted, and given the koshirae, it would have been expensive.  
 

In modern context, to me, it screams “rich person gets nice car and wants to floor it / play with it to see what it can do”.  
 

Or perhaps a WW2 soldier who was given it by a family who cared for it said “I might die here, I’m gonna cut some crazy stuff with this fancy sword before I go”.  
 

It’s almost definitely a WW2 trophy, as there’s a USN member enlistment number engraved into the habaki.  

[Jnuzzo]

Found this article on late edo tameshigiri and aratameshi that I thought was interesting (albeit possibly not pertinent to subject blade):

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Aratameshi_Nihonto.html

[Jnuzzo]

The tsuba was also engraved with five maru ni agehacho mon on each side (which could have been a purely decorative decision or a nod to more violent times).  Fittings were made by Kikuchi Tsunekatsu.  
 

Blade only has one mekugi-ana and koshirae is possibly original to the blade.  

 

So I’m entertaining the possibility that the blade encountered these cutting remnants within the late edo period swordplay as opposed to Meiji or later.  
 

Don’t really care either way, just trying to discern the history properly and not call something like it is or isn’t without due diligence.  
 

Edited Tuesday at 07:26 PM by Jnuzzo

[ROKUJURO]

Jeff,

traditionally, when a sword suffered damage from use as on your blade, it was never left in that state for long! So if this happened in Japan, a TOGISHI was around the corner for a fast (and cheap) repair. We can assume this worked well until WWII.

On the other hand, it is realistic (but admittedly not so romantic) to see the damage happen long after WWII simply because Japanese don't play with swords in such a way.  

Your TSUBA photo is upside-down.

[John C]

Jeff:

FYI, the two holes at the bottom of the tsuba are called udenuki-ana. Some suggest they were there to tie a wrist lanyard or to secure the tsuka. Others suggest they were simply decorative elements. 

From a post by Piers on a different thread:

 

1. Satsuma holes, which are smaller, were called more properly Sayadome-ana or Sayadome-no-ana. This word means 'Sheath-stopper/fastener hole(s)'. I have heard elsewhere that local laws were passed in Satsuma requiring the seals to be unbroken upon random inspection in public places. The Saya was tied from the kurigata or the kaerizuno to the tsuba by a length of twisted paper called a koyori. Every household had an abundant supply of these and people could whip them up on the spot, but I wonder if there was an official type that had to be used? Paper twists could be broken easily, but the owner probably had to have a good reason for making that extra tug.

 

2. Udenuki-no-ana/kan means literally 'forearm, go-through, hole/ring/loop'. If Satsuma Sayadome were smaller, then these by definition will be generally larger in comparison. Several examples above show one hole, not two, so are we happy to say that Udenuki-no-Kan could have come in either ones or twos? 

 

(This is also true for Netsuke which especially in older types often had a single 'chimney' passing up through a hole in the base. On another note, Japanese armour and horse saddles had many places where two adjacent holes were used for stringing.)

 

John C.

[The Forest Ninja]

This is why long swords weren't allowed to be worn indoors.

 

Show us the damaged furniture. 

[Tcat]

I concur that there are likely to have been unorthodox targets cut with this sword. Don’t ask me why I might know this 

 

Jeff, regarding tsuka - no they do not crack up and fall to pieces after a few cutting sessions. They can take a surprising amount of abuse and come out relatively unscathed. The blade typically breaks/bends before a healthy tsuka gives up. The caveat here is healthy, and fitted correctly for the nakago.

 

Since the scratches run through the rust on the edge of the blade, they must have occurred after the rust accumulated. This leads me to believe that the scratches are later than WWII.

[Hector]

I agree that it's postwar and almost certainly occurred after it was taken as a trophy. Such objects were never venerated by the victors in the same way as they were by their original owners.

Even in Japan nowadays, blades used specifically for tameshigiri are unbent and at least superficially repolished very soon after they incur such damage. 
Even if they are of low quality artistically, unlike the sword in question here.

 

Best,

Hector