Seeking ID and additional info help for Tachi sword

[Corsairisen]

Hi all,

 

 Sincerely, appreciate any help that can be offered, and thank you for taking the time to look at this…

 

I have owned the following sword for about a decade and slowly learned at least something about it, but hoping for help with a more exact ID and the expert knowledge base of the forum. From the length weight, and curvature, am pretty positive it is a Muromachi period, perhaps early to mid. Believe the left handed mei to read as “Kuroki Yoshiro” but am unable to locate the sword-smith in any reference manual, but do get references from AI searches that Yoshiro is equivalent to Yoshishiro. Though I recognize that is a lot to hope for. Additionally I can roughly translate part of the inscription on right side of nakago as “ Hacks exceptionally well” but some of the characters are not consistent with current kanji characters and native speakers of Japanese do not recognize…which I assume also indicates it is an old sword. Nakago has a deep brown to black patina. Sword has good balance but is fairly heavy compared to others I have held…which likely helps with the “excellent hacking”. I also notice a slight depression in width of blade on both side of blade near the tip. Appears to be a smith or polisher designed characteristic to make puncturing of intended surface easier.

 

Sword has a limited polish with a wave that runs through the entirety of the cutting length. Holman is easily visible with large nie and prominent noi haze along cutting edge and tip. Tang has been modified  during the WWII period and the number 09 stamped, which I assume makes it a family blade that was converted to service in early wartime and the low number indicating perhaps a degree of uniqueness to the conversion.

 

please see below for pics and please let me know if anything is needed From this side of things. Greatly appreciate any help that can be offered. Thank you.

 

swoed lento: 35’

blade length: 26.5’

curve more pronounced at base

weight: 2 lb 1 oz

 

sorry, I am having issue with photo file size. Since I don’t want to retype the entire contents of the hope is to add more photos later today

 

[ROKUJURO]

At first glance not a TACHI and not a Japanese sword.

[Brian]

Agree. From what we can see so far, not genuine but a fake. The signature definitely is, and the nakago is wildly out of shape. Have to see more pics

[John C]

Randy:

The 09 stamp is more likely to be a manufacturing number from the Chinese factory or simply there to deceive. Family swords brought to WW2 were not generally serialized.

 

John C.

[Corsairisen]

That is interesting and honestly did not know such things existed beyond the really obvious examples! Do people really make folded steel blades for a sword that I remember coming from gunto mounts and swords really were not hugely expensive at the time? Hamon is almost definitely in the steel and looks to have deferential areas of patination from being shortened. That said, I learned a long time ago to not argue with experts on the areas of their expertise!

 

I will though attempt to load more pics over the next couple of days for better view.

 

Thank you/ Appreciate the help!

 

 

[John C]

Randy:

To answer your question, yes. There are many companies currently (Hanwei for example) that make forged blades with actual hamon. It would be easy for someone to put one of these blades into gunto mounts. And these are legit reproduction companies. There are also companies making purposeful fakes. See some of the really good type 95 fakes in the Type 95 fake thread in Related Subjects.

https://www.by-the-sword.com/p-4698-hanwei-shinto-katana-by-paul-chen.aspx?

 

John C.

Edited December 15, 2025 by John C
corrected forum

[eternal_newbie]

34 minutes ago, John C said:

There are many companies currently (Hanwei for example) that make forged blades with actual hamon.

 

Some of the more high-end forges in China can now do custom blades that look more or less identical in terms of steel grain and tempering patterns to a martial-arts grade modern Nihonto. I've heard stories of one or two of these actually managing to get temporary registration permits issued when coming in to Japan for a grading / demonstration.

[2devnul]

5 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

look more or less identical in terms of steel grain and tempering patterns to a martial-arts grade modern Nihonto

 

Yes, they are getting better, but still sloppy. 

 

 

[eternal_newbie]

2 hours ago, 2devnul said:

Yes, they are getting better, but still sloppy.

 

Most of them have the telltale long fold line along the hamon, yes. But at the prestige end you have stuff like these:

 

https://www.swordjp.com/product/crab-koshirae-tamahagene-katana

https://www.reddit.com/r/Katanas/comments/1mope74/possibly_the_nicest_chinese_tamahagane_made_katana/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50084-chinese-katanas/#comment-522004

 

I'm not saying 95% of the regulars here wouldn't figure it out, but for someone newer to the field who's only ever seen monosteel/tool steel swords before it could definitely be tricky. The only saving grace is that at this point, blades of that quality are still only made on a custom basis, so they end up not being much cheaper than an actual shinsakuto once you take customisation into consideration.

 

They're even starting to get ambitious and copying big name smiths now!
Sukehiro: https://www.swordjp.com/product/toranba-tamahagane-katana-sword
Inoue Shinkai: https://www.swordjp.com/product/wing-tamahagane-katana

 

And now that I think about it, that crab koshirae one in the first link looks like it might have been an attempt at Gassan ayasugi-hada.

 

[2devnul]

1 hour ago, eternal_newbie said:

but for someone newer to the field who's only ever seen monosteel/tool steel swords before it could definitely be tricky

My first "Nihonto" was a fake, I was basing my judgment on few books only and I failed. I learned that hard way by presenting my "Nihonto" to other collector. Much have changed since then, due to more books, looking at real Nihonto in others collection (at hand), buying first few with a help of experienced collector. 

 

1 hour ago, eternal_newbie said:

Most of them have the telltale long fold line along the hamon, yes.

I think these are a good alternative for Iaido/Tameshigiri. Even for display for people that can't afford Nihonto. I personally use Chinese blade for training (both Iai and cutting), mounted in Japanese Tsuka. Chinese/Thai/other still make that fat oddly looking stake alike Tsuka, not to mention poor wrapping.

Why I use Chinese blade? I don't care if it gets chipped, bent, catches rust or whatever. I don't even clean that blade. Still, it took me a while to find a decent replica, in a way of handling etc. And it isn't (although they are good) Hanwei. 

 

1 hour ago, eternal_newbie said:

Sukehiro: https://www.swordjp.com/product/toranba-tamahagane-katana-sword

As for these 'high end replicas', I think they are still cheaper than new (not second hand) Shinsakuto with Japanese Koshirae. 

[Corsairisen]

Truly appreciate all the responses. Really interesting info from which  I learned a lot. If you all would please indulge me, I’ll post some more photos to see what you think and hopefully come to a resolution. Especially since initial post had limited information and photos to work with.
 

The deal with this sword is it in many ways shows such quality in manufacturing, detail, and signs of patination that in a lot of ways it doesn’t make sense unless the blade was modified at some point. While I initially stated this was purchased about 10 years ago, time flies, and when I looked into it found it was acquired closer to 25 to 30 years ago and for not a particularly large amount. I bought it at auction and believe it was for something like $300 USD. However the auction purchase left me with no clue as to the previous history other than some heavily used military mounts.  If I look at the mune, it precisely crafted and filed.  The blade with regard to period and specs matches Tachi. Mei is on the correct left side for this type of sword. Blade overall is nicely filed and formed. Handling wise, it seems purposely made in weight, balance, and length for cavalry use. Enough weight that it would cut through dense material, yet also well balanced. Original length, before what I believe to be a reduction in length also seems appropriate, with to some extent taking into account people from period would be slightly shorter than contemporary adults of Asian decent. Seems to have a difference in the patina on nakago where it was shortened. Kanji also suggests an archaic use of language and certainly use of characters from the pre-simplified Japanese timeframe. Temper wise, I am pretty positive is of clad and deferentially tempered steel. When I first acquired the sword, the surface had active oxidation on the softer steel yet the edge temper line showed a much harder and denser surface with no oxidation or active rust. The finish / polish on blade is IMHO a little strange, the overall curvature of the surface is nicely done with a matching convex surface on both sides of the cutting edge, but along the length shows a wave where it appears to have been put into use without regard to completely finishing, but was still in a condition where it would serve its intended purpose (hold an edge and cut) and assumed this was a result of being in a time of war and form following function, thus anything that didn’t directly affect use might be omitted. Overall, is attractive and appears to be a well crafted sword that someone spent a huge amount of time in making. 

 

Before getting to the pics, I do have a few questions:

 

1) If the signature is forged, Why not go with a known sword smith? Would they be knowledgeable enough to put the mei on the left side of a Tachi style (assuming the sword is Tachi style)

 

2) The sword shows a huge amount of work and craftsmanship, how can this be economically viable?

 

3) Would they really cut-down the blade to deceive? Wouldn’t a sword in pristine cond. be worth more, forgery, or not?

 

4) Same as above for the “09” stamp. Why not go got a sword that matches the correct period vs. forging one that has been altered and thus reducing value?

 

5) making fake patinas is typically not easy and one of the most frequently used aspects to discern forgeries, there appears to be two patinas on the nakago, one from the original length and one from post shortening of the length. It just seems like anyone with this much talent could make a more profitable honest living / would they really go to these lengths to forge (pun not intended but appreciated) a sword that is damaged?

 

Anyway, while I have traded in art and  antiquities for about 50 some years and thus have a pretty good eye for quality vs. knock-offs and old vs. new. I am, though, not an expert on Japanese swords and welcome any insight you are generous enough to offer. 
 

Unfortunately, despite spending a number of hours trying to decrease the pixel count on photos so I could load on one page, I could not find a way to do it with the iteration of IPad I am using. Please excuse the multiple pages of photos…assuming I can get them to load at all😕.

 

Thank you, again, and please let me know if anything is needed from this side of things. Really appreciate the help and hope the info and discussion benefits all involved and/or who have an interest in the topic.

[Corsairisen]

[Corsairisen]

[Corsairisen]

Can’t really see it here, but just below the curvature at the very tip of the sword There is a concave dimpling on both sides of blade. Looks like it was made for potentially improving ability to penetrate when used with a stabbing motion

[Corsairisen]

[Corsairisen]

[Corsairisen]

Magnified view of the hamon and showing slight concave indent (on both sides of blade) right before the kissaki.

 

 

Meant to add these last week but has been Esperanto busy at work and home. Thank to everyone, again, for any info you can offer!

 

Hope you all have a good Holiday and New Year!

[Corsairisen]

Sorry, forgot to mention I see one kisumu on the blade. It is about a millimeter in width, and maybe a a couple of microns deep. Looks much bigger in photo due to magnification. Not sure what magnification. I used the objective lens from a broken pair of binoculars.

[Corsairisen]

Kisumu =Kizu. Really don’t like spellcheck.

[John C]

Randy:

I'll try to answer some of your questions. But first, take a look at the two pics. Notice a few things:

1) the nakago is the wrong shape (of course, this could have happened with the violent alteration)

2) the offset line between the munemachi and hamachi is classic Chinese. Could this have been done as a result of the alteration? Sure, however a Japanese craftsman would not do it this way.

3) the writing is spaced too far apart and not artistic enough, in my opinion. Usually happens when a non-Japanese speaker is writing it.

4) notice how the bohi almost runs off of the kissaki. Again, not typically Japanese.

* one reason to use a fake signature of an unknown smith is because it's difficult to verify that it's fake. Signed pieces go for more money than mumei pieces, generally.

* I'm not sure the alterations have anything to do with the deception. Most likely someone was messing around with it to make it fit into whatever mounts they had; whether or not it was Japanese.

* making fake patina is super simple these days. I make wood art that incorporates multi-colored patinas using chemicals on silver and gold-tone gilding like barium sulfide, pot ash, and a few others. Even vinegar and salt with a little sunshine can patina copper in a few minutes, nevermind the comercial products available.

 

Note sure exactly what the sword is without hamon details. But the preponderance of the evidence suggests either not Japanese or used to be Japanese until someone destroyed it.

 

John C.

 

[ChrisW]

Hi Randy,

If you're looking for an in-hand opinion of your sword, I live in Indiana just south of Indianapolis and I could show you several examples of legitimate Japanese swords for you to compare yours to if you like.

DM me if this interests you!

~Chris

[Corsairisen]

Hey Chris, I appreciate the offer. Truth is, I have a couple authentic Japanese swords that are very nice. And a couple of more that are authentic but pretty average, and a WWII gunto which is certainly oil quenched & poor quality. Also spent a fair amount of time in museums, other’s collections, and reading related literature (many years of interest in the subject) That is part of the reason I’m so confused on this one. It shows many of the qualities I expect to find and kinda have a hard time imagining someone made this as a forgery. Though , it may also be more outrageous that it is a 1600, or so, tachi sword. Maybe the pics and description doesn’t show it, though! That said, the thing I find most odd is the lack of complete finishing on the polish so it would be completely flat  (without some wave) along the length. Since they went to the effort of getting such things as shortening and then adding a differential patination on the nakago from where it looks like it was modified and where habaki rested be for and after mod (I think if you look closely you will see this). So why leave this in a rough condition?  Especially if it is a forgery where a huge amount of effort was done, and an electric grinder or sanding belt would quickly solve the most obvious indication of lower than expected quality and so much time would have been spent on other finer points to fool the buyer. IMHO, it is a strange one…which is why I am here!

[Corsairisen]

2 hours ago, John C said:

Randy:

I'll try to answer some of your questions. But first, take a look at the two pics. Notice a few things:

1) the nakago is the wrong shape (of course, this could have happened with the violent alteration) I was going with lots of rust and abuse. It is strange, from either side, though. IDK!

2) the offset line between the munemachi and hamachi is classic Chinese. Could this have been done as a result of the alteration? Sure, however a Japanese craftsman would not do it this way. Great point that I did not know. Thank you

3) the writing is spaced too far apart and not artistic enough, in my opinion. Usually happens when a non-Japanese speaker is writing it.

4) notice how the bohi almost runs off of the kissaki. Again, not typically Japanese. Thank you!

* one reason to use a fake signature of an unknown smith is because it's difficult to verify that it's fake. Signed pieces go for more money than mumei pieces, generally.

* I'm not sure the alterations have anything to do with the deception. Most likely someone was messing around with it to make it fit into whatever mounts they had; whether or not it was Japanese. I assumed alteration was WWII inspired mod so it  fit in uniform mounts

* making fake patina is super simple these days. I make wood art that incorporates multi-colored patinas using chemicals on silver and gold-tone gilding like barium sulfide, pot ash, and a few others. Even vinegar and salt with a little sunshine can patina copper in a few minutes, nevermind the comercial products available.  But why modify just to do a patination on a forgery?

 

thank you for the help! It is appreciated. And won’t beat a dead horse! I kinda thought I should take somewhere in person but live in Kansas which isn’t the Japanese sword capital. My company does a fair amount travel to Japan, but wouldn’t take this one even if I could get it through customs. Doubt I would take any since the internet works. 🙂

2 hours ago, John C said:

 

Note sure exactly what the sword is without hamon details. But the preponderance of the evidence suggests either not Japanese or used to be Japanese until someone destroyed it. 

 

John C.

 

.

[Lexvdjagt]

Hello Randy,

 

John answered most questions wonderfully. This sword is, in my opinion, a clear forgery. Having said that, do not attempt to import this sword into Japan, as non-traditionally made Japanese swords are illegal and punishable by law.

 

To illustrate my point, I want you to look at the HADA, which is the blade's surface area, highlighted in blue by me. Compare this example to a genuine Edo-period sword (which this fake is attempting to imitate)

 

 

 

The Hada on your sword is drastically different; it seems to end just before the shinogi in a straight line. Note the difference in tone of the hamon too. The sword may look like highly skilled craftsmanship, but a factory-produced blade can imitate a lot. The blade I compared yours to can be found here: https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/ja/product/shousai/WA-0853.

 

 

Please, if you have any other questions let me know.

 

 

Greetings,

Lex van der Jagt

 

 

[Corsairisen]

19 hours ago, John C said:

Randy:

I'll try to answer some of your questions. But first, take a look at the two pics. Notice a few things:

1) the nakago is the wrong shape (of course, this could have happened with the violent alteration)

2) the offset line between the munemachi and hamachi is classic Chinese. Could this have been done as a result of the alteration? Sure, however a Japanese craftsman would not do it this way.

3) the writing is spaced too far apart and not artistic enough, in my opinion. Usually happens when a non-Japanese speaker is writing it.

4) notice how the bohi almost runs off of the kissaki. Again, not typically Japanese.

* one reason to use a fake signature of an unknown smith is because it's difficult to verify that it's fake. Signed pieces go for more money than mumei pieces, generally.

* I'm not sure the alterations have anything to do with the deception. Most likely someone was messing around with it to make it fit into whatever mounts they had; whether or not it was Japanese.

* making fake patina is super simple these days. I make wood art that incorporates multi-colored patinas using chemicals on silver and gold-tone gilding like barium sulfide, pot ash, and a few others. Even vinegar and salt with a little sunshine can patina copper in a few minutes, nevermind the comercial products available.

 

Note sure exactly what the sword is without hamon details. But the preponderance of the evidence suggests either not Japanese or used to be Japanese until someone destroyed it.

 

John C.

 

Please note there is not a boho / fuller on this blade. Image has a reflection that deceives into looking like there is one, sword is filed flat of both sides

[Brian]

I don't see anything genuine Japanese here, and if it was, it's toast. Sorry, but really too far gone. But I suspect Chinese anyways.

[ROKUJURO]

49 minutes ago, Corsairisen said:

.....Please note there is not a boho / fuller on this blade.....

You certainly mean BOHI. But as we soon have Christmas, this can happen. BO HO HO HO! 

[Scogg]

It does not appear Japanese to me.

 

Even in the very unlikely event that it was once Nihonto, one has to ask why someone would alter it so drastically; especially in a way that closely resembles common Chinese reproductions.

 

Even amateur or at home restorations typically don’t replicate the consistent features seen on Chinese forgeries like the nakago and mei.

 

I apologize for any bluntness, but that is my honest assessment. 
Best regards,

-Sam

[Corsairisen]

I asked for opinions, no grudges for anyone saying what think is correct. 
 

I have received some comments that have been beyond what I had previous knowledge of, some I didn’t expect and/or agree with, and most of them somewhere in between the two. Comments and opinions on polish vs. temper. Some on-site, and some pm’s, correcting the spelliing…even on the English 🙂.  And lots of info on tempering forgeries. Will say that having the sword in hand and a one to one discussion, v. pics and descriptions sent to multiple people, would definitely make things easier. Which I think is something I underestimated on forums. Thank you all for the responses, they have been appreciated.