Late war shin gunto?

[Marcel]

Someone is offering a "shin-gunto" with a leather-covered saya, but the tsuka is also completely covered in smooth brown leather (not a removable protective cover as you sometimes see). The tsuba is made of iron, simple, round with one side slightly flattened. A round stamp is faintly visible on the flattened side. Unfortunately, I can't make much of it. According to the seller, it's supposed to be late war. A search on the forum hasn't yielded anything yet. Does anyone know if these versions existed?
Since I don't own the sword, I don't think it's appropriate to post the photos here.

[Brian]

Not a "version" but a personal field upgrade. You see just about any variation of tsuka covers. Soldiers who wanted them protected made a plan. Usually there is a regular tsuka under that. If not, then it was a field mod, maybe his ito broke and unravelled.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have seen quite a few, and several where the tsuka was just plain wood, covered tightly in leather.  The tsuba might be a civil one.

[Marcel]

In the meantime, I've bought it (I just need to pick it up), so I think it's legal to display it here.
After some searching online, I managed to find an exact copy. The tsuba and the marking on the tsuba are also the same.
I don't think this is a field modification.
Perhaps I bought a pig in a poke, in which case I'll just consider it a learning experience.

[Brian]

Again, this is nothing done officially. It was done by or for the owner at his own personal request. So no..it's not an official "variation" just something done as a personal request or choice.
To me, that pretty much puts it in the "field done" league. That tassel is also nothing that belongs on that sword, so added by the owner for some reason.
Sword is still real.

[Trenchnut]

From what I can make out it has a Type 3 kabuto-gane. Would you send us a close up of the handle Marcel?

Edited Friday at 06:44 AM by Trenchnut

[Marcel]

I'll post some good photos when I pick up the sword, probably tomorrow. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[Marcel]

Just picked it up and took some pictures. I have no idea what to make of it except that it has a certain age. The tassel looks like a fantasy addition, made from drawstrings from a 1960s toilet.
The blade looks very gray, unpolished. The tsuba is loose. A small round mark is faintly visible. The other example I found online (as I mentioned in a previous post, exactly the same) also has a round mark. I've taken the liberty of adding a photo of it.

[Marcel]

and a photo of the mark on his twin brother's tsuba.

[Scogg]

I am unsure if it is possible without messing with the leather too much... But seeing the nakago (tang) would be interesting, and possibly reveal the most information.

There should be a mekugi under the leather on the handle. Seen poking into the leather in the photo below.

If it's possible to remove that mekugi (peg), then you could slide the handle off and reveal the nakago (tang). There may or may not be a signature, stamps, and/or a date. 

The lack of any fuchi, or seppa give me reason for concern.

Best of luck and proceed with care, patience, and caution,
-Sam

 

[Brian]

Yeah, there is no way that mark belongs on a WW2 Japanese made sword or tsuba. Also starting to wonder about this one. I think it's worth making a very small slit to get that peg out and post the bare tang. At best, that handle is "home made"

[Bruce Pennington]

36 minutes ago, Marcel said:

and a photo of the mark on his twin brother's tsuba.

 

Where did you find that one, Marcel?

 

Here is one I have on file.  Found on what Fuller called an "ersatz sword."

"The tsuba of an “ersatz” sword possibly made in Manchuria in the last months of the war.  造 could be short for 造兵 which in Japanese apparently translates to "Arsenal."

[Marcel]

8 minutes ago, Brian said:

Yeah, there is no way that mark belongs on a WW2 sword or tsuba. Also starting to wonder about this one. I think it's worth making a very small slit to get that peg out and post the bare tang. At best, that handle is "home made"

That's exactly what I was planning to do: make a small cut to see what the tang look like. Thanks for your reply.

[Marcel]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

Where did you find that one, Marcel?

 

Here is one I have on file.  Found on what Fuller called an "ersatz sword."

"The tsuba of an “ersatz” sword possibly made in Manchuria in the last months of the war.  造 could be short for 造兵 which in Japanese apparently translates to "Arsenal."

Thank you, Bruce, that's the exact same tsuba. So perhaps a last ditch sword after all.

[EdWolf]

@Bruce Pennington the picture of the mark is taken from a Dutch site.

https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/verzamelen/militaria-tweede-wereldoorlog/m2307382007-japans-officiers-showato-katana-1940-1945-gunto-stijl

[Marcel]

For the sake of science, I took it apart. That wasn't so easy, by the way. The tiny piece of leather I'd cut broke off immediately; it was bone dry. The peg was rock solid and split in half after a little persuasion on my part.
After removing the peg, it turned out the tsuka wouldn't come loose because someone had poured glue into it at some point. So, unfortunately, some brute force was needed there as well.
The tang isn't marked. It does have two parallel notches on the spine.
The tsuba is very rough on the blade side and completely unfinished.
The mark appears to be the same as the one Bruce has already shown, which is also on the tsuba of the other sword.

[Marcel]

42 minutes ago, EdWolf said:

@Bruce Pennington the picture of the mark is taken from a Dutch site.

https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/verzamelen/militaria-tweede-wereldoorlog/m2307382007-japans-officiers-showato-katana-1940-1945-gunto-stijl

That is correct Ed. I borrowed it to demonstrate the resemblance.

[Bruce Pennington]

47 minutes ago, EdWolf said:

@Bruce Pennington the picture of the mark is taken from a Dutch site.

https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/verzamelen/militaria-tweede-wereldoorlog/m2307382007-japans-officiers-showato-katana-1940-1945-gunto-stijl

Thanks, Ed! Looks like that is our third one, now.

 

1 hour ago, Marcel said:

Thank you, Bruce, that's the exact same tsuba. So perhaps a last ditch sword after all.

How about checking that leather to see if you think it is real leather or imitation leather. We have another conversation going on looking for examples of the late war imitation leather.

 

The nakago is surprisingly well made! Even has the feather file marks.  Interesting that it has to holes as if it was made for an RS model.

[Brian]

Made in an occupied territory? Not made in one of the Japanese workshops I think. By "Ersatz" I expect he meant made out somewhere, where they didn't have supply of swords. Maybe made in Manchuria for local troop supply or from a small workshop there

[Marcel]

I've been wondering, since two of the three have surfaced in the Netherlands. Could it be possible that these were made in the former Dutch East Indies during the Japanese occupation?
I know that a large number of the Shin Guntos found here in the Netherlands were brought from that region by Dutch soldiers after the war.

[Marcel]

20 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks, Ed! Looks like that is our third one, now.

 

How about checking that leather to see if you think it is real leather or imitation leather. We have another conversation going on looking for examples of the late war imitation leather.

 

The nakago is surprisingly well made! Even has the feather file marks.  Interesting that it has to holes as if it was made for an RS model.

I took a close-up of the leather. I wouldn't dare say whether it's artificial or real leather.

[Kiipu]

Made in Indonesia for the Japanese and/or local forces.  Not a fake or a reproduction. Nice catch if you are a militaria collector.

[Marcel]

Thanks for your reply Kiipu , that explains a lot.

[Kiipu]

See below for more information about the encircled 造 stamp.

Identification help

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

See below for more information about the encircled 造 stamp.

Identification help

That was a really good refresher, thank you, Thomas!

 

On 10/10/2025 at 10:51 AM, Marcel said:

I've been wondering, since two of the three have surfaced in the Netherlands. Could it be possible that these were made in the former Dutch East Indies during the Japanese occupation?
I know that a large number of the Shin Guntos found here in the Netherlands were brought from that region by Dutch soldiers after the war.

Marcel,

You nailed it.  See Thomas' observation from the discussion in the other thread (click on the photo and it will be clear to read):

[Marcel]

13 hours ago, Kiipu said:

See below for more information about the encircled 造 stamp.

Identification help

Thanks! Very interesting. Now I'm wondering who made them? Did they bring Japanese blacksmiths to the Dutch East Indies for this, or was this something local metalworkers could also make?

[Brian]

Likely local smiths with rudimentary training. Swords were still a matter of national pride, and even when they didn't have access to swords from Japan, they did their best where they were located to try and make at least a version. Some are very crude, and don't follow a set pattern, but did the job.

[EdWolf]

Likely local smiths but there was also a Dutch production plant in Bandung (Java). They were producing the Klewang for the KNIL. The Klewang is a mix between a sword and a machete. Everything was available to produce swords even skilled workers.