Advice for new collectors from an old dog

[Rayhan]

Ladies and Gentlemen, collectors of Nihonto. I am posting this today of my own volition and the following comments are of my own opinion. This post is for new collectors of Nihonto and other Samurai items. The comments and statements have no bearing on the opinions of others or the negativity that some other NMB members wish to emphasize. It is just me. If anyone takes issue with my statements, please message me on PM and don’t go at this thread like a buffet please.

 

As newcomers to Nihonto many of you will be wondering where and how to buy your first Nihonto. You will get advice from people you know and some you do not, you will be shown swords and armour and fittings for days that you think are coming from people of culture and solidarity, it is not.

 

I will speak today on swords and my collecting experience on swords, and I can only hope that my mistakes will never befall your journey.

Buying your first sword

 

When you finally go to buy the first sword please, do justice to yourselves. You all work so hard for your money, please do not waste it or make losses if you can avoid it.

 

There are small rules you can use to assist yourself:

On Nakago:

When is Suriage ok?

Suriage Nakago is ok when you are dealing with sword from the Heian to Nanbokucho period and never after. Do not be swayed by any means on swords that have been shortened after the Nanbokucho period as collectible items. They are not. There exist a great many swords in Ubu that should be looked at first.

When is Mumei ok?

Mumei blades are ok when we go from the Heian to Nanbokucho period and no later. Swords from the Muromachi period onwards should be Zaimei and no matter what anyone says there are so many available examples that you can find sure swords that meet this criteria.

On polish

Buy swords in good condition and polish, please respect your money.

On Koshirae

If your sword comes with Koshirae please make sure the fit is right. Look at the fitting and make sure they are of similar style, and they match, do not accept the mix and match Cadbury style.

On Papers

Buy swords with papers, do not buy papers. If you are presented with a group of 10 swords and 2 have papers look at those 2 first before you look at the others. Appreciate the effort of Papers and where swords sit in conjunction to the certification process. (NBTHK).

On grading

Upgrade your swords when you can.

 

On spending and budget

 

Go into this with an adequate amount of money. Later, you will appreciate selling your single sword to one buyer rather than selling 8 rust buckets to 8 rusty collectors.

 

Guys I am so tired of being ostracized and beat down on for trying to ask you to buy quality over fantasy. Just because it is a sword does not make it the sword. Do justice to yourselves, save, learn and buy. By doing this you will help educate others.

 

As new collectors I urge you to please do justice to yourselves and go forward with knowledge rather than emotion. It is easy for a select few to ruin it for the many. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Toki]

Thanks for the advice, it´s truly appreciated.

Although there is a wakizashi that i really like visually that goes against all of those....should I skip it then? (serious question)

[Rayhan]

12 minutes ago, Toki said:

Thanks for the advice, it´s truly appreciated.

Although there is a wakizashi that i really like visually that goes against all of those....should I skip it then? (serious question)

Show us the Wak

[The Forest Ninja]

Thus far, I only have a custom made Bokken, an Iaito and a Paul Chen/Hanwei Katana.

So just need a proper Japanese blade or two to round out My collection. 

 

[Rayhan]

5 minutes ago, The Forest Ninja said:

Thus far, I only have a custom made Bokken, an Iaito and a Paul Chen/Hanwei Katana.

So just need a proper Japanese blade or two to round out My collection. 

 

I trust you will choose wisely 

[Rawa]

21 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Show us the Wak

Here you go Sue Seki

[Rayhan]

6 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Here you go Sue Seki

Im sorry is there a question here?

[Rawa]

Just now, Rayhan said:

Im sorry is there a question here?

You have mumei example here -late muromachi.

[Toki]

35 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Here you go Sue Seki

 

Lovely Wak

[Toki]

1 hour ago, Rayhan said:

Show us the Wak

I will once I had it in hand and have better pictures.

[Tcat]

2 hours ago, Rayhan said:

I have been taking my swords to the meetings in the UK for the Token Society, I have flown thousands miles with swords for meetings in the UK. Travelled across the UK for meetings and yet my efforts are greeted with disdain and so I am not really willing to share anymore with those that feel they have seen it all.

Was it your really your magnanimous efforts to share your knowledge and wisdom with others which were treated with distain, or was it the fact you were trying to preach to others about how they really ought to be spending their money, meanwhile showing your own distain for those who don’t follow your definition of the correct process?

 

Genuinely curious as to how you came to feel that way because from what you’ve posted here on NMB you come across as pretty disdainful of most Japanese swords and the people interested in them. 

[Rayhan]

24 minutes ago, Tcat said:

Was it your really your magnanimous efforts to share your knowledge and wisdom with others which were treated with distain, or was it the fact you were trying to preach to others about how they really ought to be spending their money, meanwhile showing your own distain for those who don’t follow your definition of the correct process?

 

Genuinely curious as to how you came to feel that way because from what you’ve posted here on NMB you come across as pretty disdainful of most Japanese swords and the people interested in them. 

Whatever you want it to be man

[Tcat]

8 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Whatever you want it to be man

yea, you’re making a really convincing case man 

[klee]

I always have and will respect Rayhans input whenever I post on here but I think the mumei/suriage guideline can be specific to what the collector is interested in.

 

I particularly fall into this category. While mumei/Ubu is always prioritized, many of the school/smiths I want to collect will be mumei/suriage when its early muromachi ( Kongo Hyoe, Sue Bizen, Naminohira, Mihara, Hokke, any smiths connected to temples ).

 

On a side note,I firmly believe Sue Bizen should always be signed ( even better if dated ) And many blades by buddhist smith will be mumei even if ubu and is not a guage of quality in any way. This is mainly due to the buddhist beliefs ideals against egoism and respecting the sword.

 

Many begining ( and old ) collectors tend to fall in line and get comfortable with a narrow way of thinking( I was 100% one of them ). This is only natural as we are bound to become more comfortable with what we most familiar with.

 

I believe open mindedness and pushing past our own bias is essential in appreciating this art more so than others.

 

There s an almost infinite different paths to take in this hobby with a near infinite amounts of knowledge. Saddly we will all only live enough to touch a fraction of it

[Rivkin]

"You can either believe yourself to be above all Japanese expertise.

Or accept that a good sword comes with Tokubetsu Juyo certificate and stop wasting yours and other's time."

[Rayhan]

.

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Rayhan said:

Man please find a new boat 

I think you are raising an important point, both from collecting and anthropologic points of view, but which could be discussed for everyone's benefit only as long as it is accepted the question does not have a single answer.

What I cited comes from an important Nihonto collector (i.e. unlike either one of us), whose name is well recognized and who without a doubt made substantial contribution. He was direct about people with less than X millions in war funds having to accept their limitations and neither participating in certain functions, nor bothering others who do.

 

On the other (and opposite) hand, museum community in the West today generally takes it as a serious personal detriment if one collects at a high level. If such person starts working at a first tier museum there are formal protocols being developed which are rather unpleasant.

 

This was one (though I suspect minor) reason behind me being blacklisted by the community. The declared vision is to separate "scholar" and "acquisitioner" roles. I doubt its a plus, suspecting instead simple jealousy is involved. The best specialists on Duhrer and other similar subjects tend to collect, but at a modest level.

[When Necessary]

Don't bite. The OP is just looking to fire up another bitchfest and get it shut down.

[Brian]

I am NOT going to allow this to be a discussion about the intention or person behind the advise here. Anyone who takes it there better gtfo out this thread, or take a break.
I've had enough of people gunning for others, without adding zero to the study of Nihonto.
Either you decide to take the advice (or parts of it) or you don't. In which case you ignore this thread and read others.
Anyone posting personal attacks here WILL take a break. The advice is solid. Whether you choose to follow it or not, depends on how you collect. But since it's the same advice given in some major Nihonto books..are you arguing against that too?
I don't care if you follow this advice or not. Myself?...I don't. I am ok where I collect, and know at what level I collect. But while I myself don't adhere to that advice, I am grown up enough to read it and appreciate where it comes from and not take it personally. If I can do that, you guys can too.
So either politely discuss, or ignore this thread. I'm in too much pain to let this stuff add to my stress. 
Take the above seriously, I don't have time to babysit.

[oli]

i think you are too strikt, new collectors should be aware to loose money with the first purchases. But this should not end in bankrupt. 

The only point i agree with is the sword should be in good condition to appreciate it. Beginners should avoid restorations. 

[Gakusee]

Ray

One or two comments from people from a certain country cannot equate to the entire country or be a representative sample. 
 

Indeed, you have contributed a lot to the study of swords in the U.K. and even here (eg, sharing all the scanned magazines and books!) and internationally (eg study sessions in Japan). You have trodden the tortuous path of collecting numerous swords from various sources (eg people could refer to your publication of your previous collection) and experienced first-hand numerous dealers and people in the community. You are trying to share some of your painful experiences so that others do not get burnt the way you did previously. Our To-Ken Society (which numbers 220 members by the way, not the 2-3 which are more vocal here) is grateful for what you have shared in terms of study material. 

The desire and ambition to educate is noble and yet the approach needs to be proportionate and appropriate. What might be pertinent for a certain member might not be suitable for another. We are all grown up here and can decide to heed advice or not. Unfortunately such is life - whether in politics, religion, business, hobbies etc. People sometimes listen/learn and sometimes choose to ignore what they are told. We as humans are all flawed like that. 

There are numerous valid tips you share above. In fact, I would say the advice you give is concordant with the straightforward “canon” in Japan. But emotion as well personal circumstances (and most importantly probably the lack of funds) might prevent people from following that archetype. The economic factor as well as impatience (covered elsewhere) often prevail. 
 

Please let us adhere to educating (or trying to). There are various lecturers and teachers here on this board (I know a few and they are prominent members of the board and the nihonto / armour / dealer community) and they can also attest: you can teach, explain etc but it is up to the individual student to wish to learn, follow recommendations etc. 
 

 

[Alex A]

37 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Our To-Ken Society (which numbers 220 members by the way

 

 

  Thats great to hear, i take it the vast majority are UK based?

[Gakusee]

8 minutes ago, Alex A said:

  Thats great to hear, i take it the vast majority are UK based?

Alex

FYI.
However, I do not wish to digress in Rayhan’s advice thread, so let us please adhere to sharing advice / tips etc. He means well at the bottom of his heart. 
 

 

 

[Alex A]

Cheers Michael

 

 

Rayhan, On one point about Suriage. I do tend to agree but eventually came to my own conclusion.

 

For folks wanting top name smith swords such as Tadayoshi, signed swords that have slight suriage can open doors for those that dont want to or dont have the funds for Ubu swords. In other words, there are bargains to be had for higher quality works.

 

I am in the signed camp, even if part of the mei is gone.

 

Best

[Rawa]

Taking this oportunity I would like to ask you guys what are you doing after buying new choji-abura cleaning kit. I first use new oil on one cheap genuine waki I bought here. Just in case.

[Brano]

4 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Taking this oportunity I would like to ask you guys what are you doing after buying new choji-abura cleaning kit. I first use new oil on one cheap genuine waki I bought here. Just in case.

Your post is off topic Marcin
But OK - I live in the inland country and haven't oiled the blades at all for several years
So it depends where in Poland you live
If you need to oil - again the common rule applies - less is more
The right amount of oil in a very thin layer is important so that you don't contaminate the inside of the shirasaya with oil

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Cheers Michael

 

 

Rayhan, On one point about Suriage. I do tend to agree but eventually came to my own conclusion.

 

For folks wanting top name smith swords such as Tadayoshi, signed swords that have slight suriage can open doors for those that dont want to or dont have the funds for Ubu swords. In other words, there are bargains to be had for higher quality works.

 

I am in the signed camp, even if part of the mei is gone.

 

Best

How do you feel about gakumei and orkaeishimei? It often surprises me that this isn't encountered more frequently. The big name early Koto smiths  eg the Soshu and Rai grand masters, were already highly prized when the blades were being shortened be it for practicality or changes in battlefield tactics. But little effort was made to preserve the mei with the blade after suriage.

 

This is one of my favourite gakumei swords. The jiba is quintessential Norishige

[Alex A]

Obviously not ideal but if its a sword you desire, then well, guess i would be ok with it.

 

They do seem rare, some would have that down as an extra interesting factor about a particular sword.

 

We all look at swords in different ways.

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

Priorities changed over the eras. 
 

Shortening during the turbulent Muromachi times were motivated by having the best, most functionally advanced sword by your side. It was life and death, no time for nonsense. It wasn’t seen as disrespect for Grandpa’s heirloom - the opposite in fact, it was given a new life to do what it was supposed to do: battlefield duty to protect grandpa’s family lineage. 
 

Oda Nobunaga was a serial O-suriage enjoyer and big collector. He wanted the option to use it. 
 

Only the curious dreams of the Uesugi Daimyo somehow led to a family-wide proscription on chopping up heirloom nakago. 
 

Later you see more refined approaches. Gakumei, Orikashi Mei, Kinzogan Mei, and so on and so forth. They are the fruits of a time where life and death battle royal wasn’t the only grand imperative. 

And again, it was seen as a sign of respect to the sword to be able to wear it in court. 

 

Remember that a Kinzogan Mei by the Ko-Hon’ami was seen as equivalent to a signed sword. You still have this attitude in Japan, where a Kochu Kinzogan or Origami is often said to be equivalent to a signed sword by old collectors. 
 

Gakumei were also susceptible to forgeries. You can always transplant a mei from a burned Norishige on your Ko-Uda, and make shenanigans. The alternative is the shenanigan-proof Orikashi mei. But It came later. it was also carried out outside of Hon’ami/Umetada shogunal institutions. 
 

And sometimes Mei were messed with for strategic reasons. At some point it became very risky to own a signed blade from a grandmaster for a small, or even large clan. There was always a bigger dog that would gently ask you to part way with the sword in a way you couldn’t refuse. Gakumei swords, swords with defaced mei (filed, chopped midway, half erased by the bohi extension…) - these were protected as they were considered less appropriate for gift giving. 
 

The Satake clan is noteworthy for having filed, defaced, extended bohi etc on all their family top swords. They probably got badly burned at some point and took drastic action. 
 

There are a lot of social circumstances surrounding nakago condition, and it is quite a fascinating topic. 
 

Personally I find Gakumei, Orikashi Mei, ko-Kinzogan, defaced Mei, and partial Mei swords wonderful. They tell the story of their times. 
 

Best,

 

Hoshi
 

[Kanenaga]

"This is a hobby; it's supposed to be fun!"

Ralph Bell, RIP