Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?

[Jussi Ekholm]

Your advice is very solid Rayhan, and I think it is wise for all of us to think about our decisions.  Especially new people can buy something without thinking too much and if they would have waited for few months might be able to get an item that they enjoy much more. There was actually a recent thread where several of you guys were giving very solid info and recommendations to a new member.

 

I do think that buying items is important to enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby. I have fallen more into researcher category as I do enjoy that part immensely but I understand for most people it is the collecting that makes the hobby for them. So for collecting I think that buying & selling items is a major part of the enjoyment of this hobby. While it might not be optimal in terms of gathering funds for larger purchase, I would think it would be more enjoyable for many to have some items to enjoy while they save up for major purchase. Sure the money could be better invested in something else for 5 years for example and then used for larger purchase and it would be perfectly ok to do that too. For the low level items I think it is decently safe to get roughly the same investment back when reselling. Of course the initial investment need to be taken into consideration but if you have modern NBTHK papered item it will always sell for decent price outside Japan. The higher up you go in price the more variable it will get and people need to be cautious.

 

For 2000€ sword losing 50% is only losing 1000€ or you could in lucky case get 150% and score 1000€ in your pocket in resale. Now think about 40,000€ sword and losing 50% is losing 20,000€. Of course you could in extremely lucky case sell it for profit but I think for a private person it will be more difficult to make profit on expensive swords, that is high end dealer playground. I can only imagine it would be extremely stressful to think about so large (money amount) fluctuations in price.

 

As for personal collecting to maybe as a slight shock I don't care at all about the smiths/schools or quality... I don't actually want Masamune, Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. Currently even condition is bit irrelevant for me if I like the shape of the blade which for me is about the only thing that really matters. Even with unlimited budget my dream of personal collection would be

1. Muromachi period ōdachi

2. Muromachi period ō-naginata/nagamaki

3. Nanbokuchō period ōdachi

4. Nanbokuchō period ō-naginata/nagamaki

 

Would it be completely irrational to choose a huge sword with condition issues and no papers over a pristine Tokubetsu Jūyō sword for example, of course.  I know myself that I would enjoy that flawed ōdachi more than a very high level sword in my personal collection.

[Rivkin]

8 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

For 2000€ sword losing 50% is only losing 1000€ or you could in lucky case get 150% and score 1000€ in your pocket in resale. Now think about 40,000€ sword and losing 50% is losing 20,000€. Of course you could in extremely lucky case sell it for profit but I think for a private person it will be more difficult to make profit on expensive swords, that is high end dealer playground. I can only imagine it would be extremely stressful to think about so large (money amount) fluctuations in price.

 

In objective commercial terms the absolutely worst purchase I ever made had a very high ranking paper. For obvious reasons. 

[Rayhan]

15 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

In objective commercial terms the absolutely worst purchase I ever made had a very high ranking paper. For obvious reasons. 

Interesting, would you elaborate on the sword, paper and how you lost money?

 

On 8/10/2025 at 12:39 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

Your advice is very solid Rayhan, and I think it is wise for all of us to think about our decisions.  Especially new people can buy something without thinking too much and if they would have waited for few months might be able to get an item that they enjoy much more. There was actually a recent thread where several of you guys were giving very solid info and recommendations to a new member.

 

I do think that buying items is important to enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby. I have fallen more into researcher category as I do enjoy that part immensely but I understand for most people it is the collecting that makes the hobby for them. So for collecting I think that buying & selling items is a major part of the enjoyment of this hobby. While it might not be optimal in terms of gathering funds for larger purchase, I would think it would be more enjoyable for many to have some items to enjoy while they save up for major purchase. Sure the money could be better invested in something else for 5 years for example and then used for larger purchase and it would be perfectly ok to do that too. For the low level items I think it is decently safe to get roughly the same investment back when reselling. Of course the initial investment need to be taken into consideration but if you have modern NBTHK papered item it will always sell for decent price outside Japan. The higher up you go in price the more variable it will get and people need to be cautious.

 

For 2000€ sword losing 50% is only losing 1000€ or you could in lucky case get 150% and score 1000€ in your pocket in resale. Now think about 40,000€ sword and losing 50% is losing 20,000€. Of course you could in extremely lucky case sell it for profit but I think for a private person it will be more difficult to make profit on expensive swords, that is high end dealer playground. I can only imagine it would be extremely stressful to think about so large (money amount) fluctuations in price.

 

As for personal collecting to maybe as a slight shock I don't care at all about the smiths/schools or quality... I don't actually want Masamune, Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. Currently even condition is bit irrelevant for me if I like the shape of the blade which for me is about the only thing that really matters. Even with unlimited budget my dream of personal collection would be

1. Muromachi period ōdachi

2. Muromachi period ō-naginata/nagamaki

3. Nanbokuchō period ōdachi

4. Nanbokuchō period ō-naginata/nagamaki

 

Would it be completely irrational to choose a huge sword with condition issues and no papers over a pristine Tokubetsu Jūyō sword for example, of course.  I know myself that I would enjoy that flawed ōdachi more than a very high level sword in my personal collection.

I have no idea why people would go into collecting to accept losing 50% not a good idea. Anyway wouldn't Tokubetsu Juyo, Odachi with niku and Kenzen be better? we said no budget  

[Matsunoki]

42 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I have no idea why people would go into collecting to accept losing 50% not a good idea.

You seem very focussed on money.
How about the fun, enjoyment and excitement that comes with collecting? The simple pleasure of owning something(s) that brings joy even at modest financial outlays. Obviously no-one would deliberately collect intending to lose 50%…..but all markets flux and there are no guarantees at any level. 

 

Its just my opinion, but apart from a few exceptions, Nihonto are not a good candidate for positive  investment returns anyway and the higher up the ladder you go the more potential for disaster no matter how experienced you are. The air is very rarified at that altitude…..very few potential customers compared to lower down. 

 

There was a big sale in the USA a while ago, I believe it was a famous and very highly regarded collection. Many lovely very expensive things remained unsold…..and thus commercially heavily damaged in the marketplace. 

[Gakusee]

55 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Interesting, would you elaborate on the sword, paper and how you lost money?

 

I have no idea why people would go into collecting to accept losing 50% not a good idea. Anyway wouldn't Tokubetsu Juyo, Odachi with niku and Kenzen be better? we said no budget  

 

Ray

I suppose what Jussi implicitly references is the fact that a commercially purchased  blade has an inbuilt profit margin realised by one or, more likely, several dealers and resellers. Therefore, when, or if, the time comes to dispose of it, one will very likely sustain some loss, unless the blade is a very sought-after (usually big) name, which has appreciated over the holding period. Broadly, the latter is not impossible or improbable, and we have seen it recently with specific smiths. For instance, Norishige and Muramasa have really styrocketed in the last 10 years or so. There are some Shinto names which have also appreciated palpably, eg Horikawa Kunihiro etc. This is only anecdotal from my limited observations but there are professionals on this Board who can attest further. 
Some friends refer to this potential loss of return on resale as “tax of enjoyment and study” of the underlying items. This “tax” can of course be minimised with some shrewd shopping, ideally directly in Japan, but one needs to beware hopes and expectations of a profit or meaningful financial return. Exceptions are possible, as in every field….
 

Personally, I have also decided for myself it is better to save over a medium period of time and buy swords only very occasionally, but periodically let go of some items over the years. That does not diminish the enjoyment of the hobby at all - I still meet very interesting people, become engaged in related events and so on. But the excitement of “ownership” is not there as one becomes blasé after a while, due to the plethora of swords and fittings one could be exposed to.  Sometimes, viewing/holding/ studying items without necessarily owning them is fulfilling and rewarding enough. 

[Rawa]

Currency is unpredictable. Dollar/yen and yen/euro currency rate attached. If you earn euro its good. If you earn dollar its different but still worthy. If I were an american with current tariffs situation I would focus on domestic market. But still yen is on lowest level since 2008 crisis. 

 

[Rawa]

But afterall collecting and investing are two quite different things. I heard many opinions that you collect for yourself but in terms of investing in any antiques you investing for future generation profit. Do what you love. 

[Rayhan]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

You seem very focussed on money.
How about the fun, enjoyment and excitement that comes with collecting? The simple pleasure of owning something(s) that brings joy even at modest financial outlays. Obviously no-one would deliberately collect intending to lose 50%…..but all markets flux and there are no guarantees at any level. 

 

Its just my opinion, but apart from a few exceptions, Nihonto are not a good candidate for positive  investment returns anyway and the higher up the ladder you go the more potential for disaster no matter how experienced you are. The air is very rarified at that altitude…..very few potential customers compared to lower down. 

 

There was a big sale in the USA a while ago, I believe it was a famous and very highly regarded collection. Many lovely very expensive things remained unsold…..and thus commercially heavily damaged in the marketplace. 

Please let us not assume my interest in monetary. I would like this to be a general discussion and not personalised in any form, gentlemanly. Market metrics asside assuming that you will make a loss before buying anything is not a good place to start on anything. Fun? I have had so much fun and met so many and seen in my collection of now vs my 150 swords in 2016 a lot of learning curves. I have sold off most of what was not in my wheel house or collecting direction anymore. If you spend time on anything you are automatically investing (time the greatest commodity) all our time has a value. 

 

Swords took me to Japan 6 times a year when I was still unmarried and fancy free whic in itself was time so well invested that I will never fail to see the ROI in this collecting field. The only place I feel cheated is when I have Sushi outside of Japan and have to pay rediculous prices, absolute robbery! 

 

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

 

Ray

I suppose what Jussi implicitly references is the fact that a commercially purchased  blade has an inbuilt profit margin realised by one or, more likely, several dealers and resellers. Therefore, when, or if, the time comes to dispose of it, one will very likely sustain some loss, unless the blade is a very sought-after (usually big) name, which has appreciated over the holding period. Broadly, the latter is not impossible or improbable, and we have seen it recently with specific smiths. For instance, Norishige and Muramasa have really styrocketed in the last 10 years or so. There are some Shinto names which have also appreciated palpably, eg Horikawa Kunihiro etc. This is only anecdotal from my limited observations but there are professionals on this Board who can attest further. 
Some friends refer to this potential loss of return on resale as “tax of enjoyment and study” of the underlying items. This “tax” can of course be minimised with some shrewd shopping, ideally directly in Japan, but one needs to beware hopes and expectations of a profit or meaningful financial return. Exceptions are possible, as in every field….
 

Personally, I have also decided for myself it is better to save over a medium period of time and buy swords only very occasionally, but periodically let go of some items over the years. That does not diminish the enjoyment of the hobby at all - I still meet very interesting people, become engaged in related events and so on. But the excitement of “ownership” is not there as one becomes blasé after a while, due to the plethora of swords and fittings one could be exposed to.  Sometimes, viewing/holding/ studying items without necessarily owning them is fulfilling and rewarding enough. 

I have it on fine authoritythat you yourself waited patiently for 8 years before making your first purchase  a friend told me  That is admirable and a lesson to everyone considering this hobby. 

[Hokke]

2 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I have it on fine authoritythat you yourself waited patiently for 8 years before making your first purchase  a friend told me  That is admirable and a lesson to everyone considering this hobby. 

Have to disagree, it's not admirable, it's a choice. Someone can wait that amount of time to make a purchase and it still be no better a choice than one made after only a few months. Its all about the variables.

[Rayhan]

14 minutes ago, Hokke said:

Have to disagree, it's not admirable, it's a choice. Someone can wait that amount of time to make a purchase and it still be no better a choice than one made after only a few months. Its all about the variables.

I can say that it was a choice to choose education, community building and advice over rushing. You cannot disagree with something you have not experienced yourself. 

[Bugyotsuji]

While reading these posts I have to keep going back to check what the original question was.

 

Now I am feeling that if you have extra cash, one should invest first and foremost in an old-age pension, ...and if you then still have extra cash, from selling the family silver etc., try not to spend it on wild parties and other stuff, otherwise your sword-purchasing options will be limited.

 

Priorities.

[Matsunoki]

31 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Please let us not assume my interest in monetary.

3 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Interesting, would you elaborate on the sword, paper and how you lost money?

“Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?”

”rush head long into a purchase and inevitably lose money on a resale ”

”Last year those Gendaito I purchased for 600 GBP or 900 GBP sold for 5K a piece in Bonhams, that is 5X in 20 years”

”Its what we  see, the 2000 is crap, the 5000 is ok, then you see 10k”

 

@Rayhan

Please clarify as I am confused. All of your statements above focus on money. 

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Matsunoki said:

“Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?”

”rush head long into a purchase and inevitably lose money on a resale ”

”Last year those Gendaito I purchased for 600 GBP or 900 GBP sold for 5K a piece in Bonhams, that is 5X in 20 years”

”Its what we  see, the 2000 is crap, the 5000 is ok, then you see 10k”

 

@Rayhan

Please clarify as I am confused. All of your statements above focus on money. 

Absolutely and I am one of the few who openly discuss money as examples of how over 20 years of custodianship the swords were let go at the right time, 2 decades is a long time to wait wouldn't you say? And I would really appreciate if you would put into proper context the entire flow of facts and statements as taking excerpts is misleading and a low form attack. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys everyone knows that, it's a universal fact. If you do not consider money in any purchase then I cannot hope to understand you and neither you me as we all consider monetary policy before purchasing anything really. The consideration is far greater the more you spend or are willing to spend.

 

Everyone pops their cherry and is so enamoured over their first then you move on and see the first was an ok sword then you see museums, private collections and the dti and then you think there is so much more out there. 

 

So why not save to get to what's out there?

[Gakusee]

So gents, let us indeed adhere to a neutral and civil tone of exchange. 
 

Ray, when we were starting out 20-30 years ago, there was less info available, fewer purchase / learning choices in the Western world, we had fewer contacts. The world has moved on a lot in the intervening time. We and Japan have also moved on and opened new doors. 
 

Yes, I made the conscious choice to wait for 8 years between when I became a timid and intermittent visitor to the Token Society of U.K. meetings (surrounded by slightly sceptical but dauntingly knowledgeable elders, some of whom are still with us today but some of whom have sadly moved on to exist ethereally among the celestial daimyo) and my first proper purchase in 2009. 
 

Perhaps, for someone with multiple hobbies and interests,  the incremental gratification or utility derived from a sword / tsuba / fitting etc purchase might not equate to the gratification or utility derived from other activities or hobbies and hence people might spend earlier / faster / less on this hobby. Psychologically, also the burden of a larger expense made after a lengthy saving period is heavier, as opposed to a smaller and earlier purchase. 
 

Furthermore, nowadays with instant (and most importantly, English-language sword-related) information availability, the various social media proliferation and better social connectivity, I can understand very well how people are less patient. Perhaps they also feel more secure in an earlier / cheaper / smaller acquisition. We cannot impose on others what we feel is right for us or for our circumstances. 
 

Your approach is not a taboo but perhaps less popular and less endorsed by newcomers, given the world we live in today. Eventually people do learn to be more patient, once they are confronted with polishing or papering in Japan, which could mean years of being parted with one’s sword. 

 

[Hokke]

50 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

I can say that it was a choice to choose education, community building and advice over rushing. You cannot disagree with something you have not experienced yourself. 

You assume less time was "rushing".........assumptions can be problematic. 

[Matsunoki]

23 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

So why not save to get to what's out there?

How much do we have to save????…..and why?.

 

I’m still confused. Are you talking about how long newcomers should wait before buying or how long we have to keep a sword before selling at a profit?

I cannot see how quoting your own words is an attack…..you are focussing on money despite suggesting that you are not….thats OK as long as we know it’s money that is driving the debate. 

Your topic title asks why is there a taboo.

There is no taboo. It is very simple……people do whatever they chose to do. 
People spend whatever they can afford on whatever takes their fancy.

Who are we to judge?

Rich people can spend a lot. They can also save a lot.

The less well off can probably only save a small amount….how long do they wait before jumping in? 

In the last 3 years I have sold 60 swords mostly face to face mostly to experienced collectors!  Mostly below £5k and it has brought a lot of pleasure to me as a seller and resulted in a great many very happy customers. Some I sold at a loss and couldn’t care less. Some I deliberately sold at a loss because I know the customer has financial constraints. Some I made a modest profit on. Overall I have recouped my outlay which in the current global market is a minor miracle.

 

 

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Hokke said:

You assume less time was "rushing".........assumptions can be problematic. 

Thanks for resting my point on assumption;) 

[Rayhan]

31 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

How much do we have to save????…..and why?.

 

I’m still confused. Are you talking about how long newcomers should wait before buying or how long we have to keep a sword before selling at a profit?

I cannot see how quoting your own words is an attack…..you are focussing on money despite suggesting that you are not….thats OK as long as we know it’s money that is driving the debate. 

Your topic title asks why is there a taboo.

There is no taboo. It is very simple……people do whatever they chose to do. 
People spend whatever they can afford on whatever takes their fancy.

Who are we to judge?

Rich people can spend a lot. They can also save a lot.

The less well off can probably only save a small amount….how long do they wait before jumping in? 

In the last 3 years I have sold 60 swords mostly face to face mostly to experienced collectors!  Mostly below £5k and it has brought a lot of pleasure to me as a seller and resulted in a great many very happy customers. Some I sold at a loss and couldn’t care less. Some I deliberately sold at a loss because I know the customer has financial constraints. Some I made a modest profit on. Overall I have recouped my outlay which in the current global market is a minor miracle.

 

 

I am speaking about how long anyone should wait before making a purchase. lets try for hypotheticals and in this scenario we older collectors might have experienced these issues that all newer collectors should hope to avoid. 

 

Let us say I want a Hizen blade. Hizen as a school was prolific in manufacture and there are so many options it is quite the conundrum. If I was new to the hobby or and older collector new to Hizen I would buy two different swords depending on the educational level. Education takes time, again Why is saving for a sword a taboo when it gives you time? A new collector might go in and say I want Hizen and I do not want to pay much so they will buy Hozon Hizen which is from a later generation, in an ok polish and has 3 mekugi ana, is suriage, has no koshirae and they will get exactly that for a stellar price. A more experienced collector may say I want to get Hizen from a certain generation and know why that generation and they may say I want it Ubu and Zaimei with date, etc and who is making the better purchase, the one who learned more obviously, saving does not mean not INVESTING TIME but gives us more options would you not say? Then you have the other spectrum where someone is looking at why Shodai is valued at this price and from this period who will look at Juyo oshigata for Shodai and see the variables, who will then look at Nidai in the same way and Mutsu in the same way and understand down the line why they are what they aren why they important as indiviual specimens. Maybe they cannot hope to own a Mutsu Juyo at 76CM nagasa in flawless condition but the fact that you understand and see has its own merritts as @Gakusee has stated. Beacuse you also understand what you see. 

 

How long you should wait to get to that point is up to you and as a person. The point I want to make is that if you want to sit with a sword for 20 years in your collection and eventually find that inflection point of when it is a good time to sell it minimizing the loss as much as possible, maybe realising a profit or etc, then it better be something that you want to look at for 20 years without having a feeling that, damn, I got this then I saw that now i need to sell this lose X amount (diminishing my budget for the next one that I want) saving to add to the loss and by the time I get to that point of what I want, the one i really wanted is gone and I have to wait all over again or settle for something that ,well, puts me back in square 1. 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Sorry Rayhan, I just don’t see any point in going into this level of hypothetical discussion.

2 hours ago, Rayhan said:

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys

That statement seems to summarise your belief. I do not share that view. 
 

[Rayhan]

21 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Sorry Rayhan, I just don’t see any point in going into this level of hypothetical discussion.

That statement seems to summarise your belief. I do not share that view. 
 

To each their own it's a board of views and discussion

[Rivkin]

I don't think within first 1.5-2 years collectors should buy High end blades.

Cheaper blades allow you to experiment, experience loss, study without having a lot at stake, not only in financial but also artefact preservation terms.

I for example have very poor motorics, inferior manners and need to maintain attention just to avoid damage. Even then I had two(!) memorable near misses when photographing important unique blades...

 

At some point I made a decision not to collect blades with very high level papers. First, there were just two periods in my life when I could afford them. Second, my understanding of commercial side of nihonto is insufficient. In order not to waste considerable sum when reselling I need to be confident in 10-30% valuation increase, which with many names is not trivial nor expected. Third, I enjoy dumpster diving and working with blades without attributions. Forth, I realized for a considerable time I was an encyclopedic collector going through as many schools as possible to understand what they are and to know how to photograph them.

 

My high end purchase ended up a financial and otherwise disaster. I probably bought it for the name and paper level, as it was not a stellar piece looks-wise.

It gave me a few fun moments, like coming to a club always presented a perfect opportunity to give it to a sensei and enjoy him stating "oh, you bought a REAL samurai blade! Good start! Muromachi, yes, samurai-fighting-yes. Very small kissaki, probably reshaped, which for Japanese sword is not a good thing, yes.".

 

Nakago comes out... Poor Sensei-san.

Thing is, appraising blades is difficult and when a new person walks in nobody expects him to carry something of value. Conversely when a respected collector in a club brings a blade you don't expect it to be a Mihara. Even the best Mihara in existence, he'll not bring something that makes people remember "and John brought Mihara".

Suguha? Rai Kunitoshi! atari.

[Rayhan]

52 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

I don't think within first 1.5-2 years collectors should buy High end blades.

Cheaper blades allow you to experiment, experience loss, study without having a lot at stake, not only in financial but also artefact preservation terms.

I for example have very poor motorics, inferior manners and need to maintain attention just to avoid damage. Even then I had two(!) memorable near misses when photographing important unique blades...

 

At some point I made a decision not to collect blades with very high level papers. First, there were just two periods in my life when I could afford them. Second, my understanding of commercial side of nihonto is insufficient. In order not to waste considerable sum when reselling I need to be confident in 10-30% valuation increase, which with many names is not trivial nor expected. Third, I enjoy dumpster diving and working with blades without attributions. Forth, I realized for a considerable time I was an encyclopedic collector going through as many schools as possible to understand what they are and to know how to photograph them.

 

My high end purchase ended up a financial and otherwise disaster. I probably bought it for the name and paper level, as it was not a stellar piece looks-wise.

It gave me a few fun moments, like coming to a club always presented a perfect opportunity to give it to a sensei and enjoy him stating "oh, you bought a REAL samurai blade! Good start! Muromachi, yes, samurai-fighting-yes. Very small kissaki, probably reshaped, which for Japanese sword is not a good thing, yes.".

 

Nakago comes out... Poor Sensei-san.

Thing is, appraising blades is difficult and when a new person walks in nobody expects him to carry something of value. Conversely when a respected collector in a club brings a blade you don't expect it to be a Mihara. Even the best Mihara in existence, he'll not bring something that makes people remember "and John brought Mihara".

Suguha? Rai Kunitoshi! atari.

There are some Mihara swords that i will always remember and love, it's just an overlooked school. You are right that etiquette in how to handle and conserve swords is important. I think the more experienced the more you see good and bad, even a bad sword shows it's good points with more experienced eyes.

 

[Brano]

21 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Sorry Rayhan, I just don’t see any point in going into this level of hypothetical discussion.

That statement seems to summarise your belief. I do not share that view. 
 

I agree that Rayhan's statement sounds a bit expressive

 

Colin - from your posts I see you as an experienced collector
So I'll try to define a great blade - and not in economic terms
Let's put 100 different blades on a table and put a few great blades in between and show it to a group of EDUCATED nihonto collectors
I'm sure they'll have no problem identifying the few great pieces
However, it's imperative that they are educated
Otherwise they will prefer the distinctive rough jigane Muromachi blades with nioiguchi consisting of lots of activity with no metallurgical consistency and dull reflection to the Awataguchi tanto in a very tight itame and suguha hamon

 

If someone prefers an average Muromachi blade for its "attractive appearance" there's nothing wrong with that
However, if someone says or thinks that for little money they can buy a nihonto that is 80% as good as a much more expensive blade (if the price is justified of course), he probably never had the opportunity to study in detail a metallurgically high-quality blade in his hands

 

This topic has been discussed here many times and I'm afraid it will be many more

But buying a great blade for a few thousand is simply almost impossible

You have to be very educated and have a bit of luck to achieve this
If the seller knows what he is selling - it will never happen

[Scogg]

What makes a sword objectively great or bad isn’t relative; it’s based on craftsmanship and quality and to some level historical significance.

But what makes a sword a great addition to my collection is 100% personal. I've handled blades from junk quality to TokuJuyo, and the reality is, most collectors (myself included) won’t own an objectively "great" blade due to budget.
 

Instead, I focus on what’s “good for me”; pieces that align with my goals and limitations. If you love Nihonto, have seen top-tier blades, but have a modest budget, it’s unlikely you’ll collect anything truly “high-end.” And that’s okay. You just need to find what’s meaningful within your reach. And maybe more importantly, understanding what it is that you're buying.

Just my views as someone who has no intent to profit from my collection,
-Sam

Edit: To remain on topic, I have saved for items in my collection, and I think people should push their budget, and be patient, to get the best they can afford. But what i've been able to save might be pennies relative to what others are capable of. I am under no illusions that my collection reflects that. 

Edited August 12 by Scogg

[Matsunoki]

@Brano

Brano, I agree with much that you say, knowledge is essential if you want to buy expensive things unless you are so rich it doesn’t matter. But not everyone wants to buy expensive things and many cannot buy expensive things.
 

Thankfully this hobby can happily accommodate all levels, tastes, preferences and aspirations.

 

However a couple of questions….

What exactly constitutes a great blade….is there a definition that everyone would agree on?

Does a great blade have to be an expensive blade?…does everyone agree on that?

Are all expensive blades great?

Is there a difference between a great blade and a great sword?

 

Basically what I’m saying is let people happily buy/collect whatever they want (or can) and stop trying to judge them.  

This whole topic started with the suggestion that “newbies” should save more (how much more.?) and wait before taking the plunge. How many of us on this forum honestly did that?

 

Speaking personally, I’ve built two collections of swords (not just blades) the first over 40 years ago…in all well over 200 swords and 195+ have been sold to very happy people …..dealers (including Japanese) and collectors, experienced and beginners, rich and not so rich. None of these blades would probably fit your definition of “great blades”…..but neither myself nor the great many happy customers give a stuff. Many would definitely fit my definition of truly great swords.

 

Live and let live without judgement. 

 

 

 

[Rayhan]

@Matsunoki just to remind you in the middle of this thread on page 1 you will see i was talking about saving for a budget of 8k USD (plus) for a decent first purchase or second or 3rd and nothing to do with unicorn blades you keep thinking we or I am pushing here. And I never said don't buy what you like, everyone buys what they like or convinces themselves they like it for 2 reasons, they haven't seen anything better or they don't have the patience to expand their budgets so tell themselves this is the best 3k USD blade in the whole DTI (because i don't want to see anything i cannot afford, so HA!). Whatever chip you have on your  shoulder it's naginata size bro. 

 

The NBTHK clearly has an idea of what constitutes a great blade, so does Tanobe sensei and plenty of other governing authority in our hobbies orbit. So let's get that straight and get back to the topic of why people tell collectors they should be willing to shoot from the hip without taking the time to see what's out there and be happy to lose huge sums on the resale. Its a toxic trait in this hobby. Its also completely avoidable, unless you are the guys with 195 so so swords to sell and need to convince 195 people to buy them.

 

One thing we can all agree on is that any new comer or existing collector that saves for a 8k to 12k USD sword even if it takes 5 years will in the end of that 5 years have amazing options available to them for that one statement piece. And if it's a beginner that is armed with 5 years of educational experience,  practical and theoretical, well the world is their oyster at that point. 

[Matsunoki]

Tut tut, temper temper.

what happened to being gentlemanly and a forum for open discussion?

No chip on my shoulder, I just don’t agree with you and I don’t have the same views on collecting as you.

Anyway….you keep talking money and I’ll keep talking enjoyment and tolerance.….and your last paragraph is utter rubbish 

[Rayhan]

Just now, Matsunoki said:

Tut tut, temper temper.

what happened to being gentlemanly and a forum for open discussion?

No chip on my shoulder, I just don’t agree with you and I don’t have the same views on collecting as you.

Anyway….you keep talking money and I’ll keep talking enjoyment and tolerance.….and your last paragraph is utter rubbish 

There is no temper, it's how you're reading it, try a different voice a happy one or an indifferent one perhaps? 

 

So what makes my last statement utterly rubbish? Tut tut, temper temper.

[Matsunoki]

18 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

One thing we can all agree on i

Wrong 

 

20 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

any new comer or existing collector that saves for a 8k to 12k USD sword even if it takes 5 years will in the end of that 5 years have amazing options available to them for that one statement piece.

What amazing options? They own one sword….they may have bought badly

 

20 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

And if it's a beginner that is armed with 5 years of educational experience,  practical and theoretical, well the world is their oyster at that point. 

I agree knowledge is necessary but only to your personal chosen level.

I dislike talking money but I have been fortunate, I could buy a great many things but I simply choose not to. Therefore I do not aspire to be an expert at Kantei nor to own expensive swords for the sake of ownership. They are not “my thing” and in my experience there are a great many others who share that view.

 

You can make snide remarks about my selling swords, but we all seem happy, many customers have returned many times. I do not make them buy anything.

 

Is that really so darned hard to understand?

[jawob]

If I bought a sword at $12k, from a trusted dealer, at retail, on average how long would it take to break even if I had to sell? I know this is very general.