Help with Army Kyu Gunto

[RFM]

Hello All!  I'm a new member to this site (and a novice on Japanese swords).  I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts on this sword I bought at an auction today for $150.  I believe it is an Army Kyu-Gunto but I'm just guessing.  The blade is still quite sharp (all the way back to the hilt.  I took the Menuki out but could not get the tsuba off.  Seems like there might be another pin (I can get it about 1/4" inches off).  The Saya is metal covered in some sort of cloth.  Thoughts?

Thank you!!

 

[Scogg]

Hi @RFM,

 

Relocating this to the military swords of Japan section because I think you’ll get more responses there about the fittings and these type of swords. 

Let me know if you have any issues/questions. 

Best of luck,

-Sam 

[RFM]

thank you!!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Roger, the small round disc in the middle of the Tsuka should unscrew and allow you to remove the blade. From the style it appears to be quite an early model of the Kyu Gunto. 

 

[RFM]

Thanks much!  Very helpful!  I do think it is quite old.  Cheers!

[Bruce Pennington]

Roger!  Another COS resident!  Too bad I'm leaving town in 2 days, or we'd have to get together and drool over each other's swords.

 

Can you post a photo of the pattern on the back, top of the backstrap?  Also, anything on the very end of the pommel?  And another shot showing the face of the handguard?

 

I don't have my Dawson or Fuller with me.  Plimpton has a couple swords with the plain disc instead of a sakura.  They seem to be in the 1875 versions of Type 8 kyu gunto.  He calls some "Warrant Officer" but I don't know where he got the idea that Warrant officers had their own style swords.  There was a great amount of variation in those early years.

[RFM]

Thanks Bruce! Glad to know there’s also someone in Colorado Springs working with this! Here are some photos you ask for. I like the sword but it’s in pretty bad shape as you can see. It is not signed on the tang.  I have three other swords in a little better condition than this one. Only one of them is signed and I sent the information on it to the Japanese embassy and they are looking into repatriate it to its original family. have a great trip!

[Rawa]

You have sword signed with owner details? 

[Scogg]

1 hour ago, RFM said:

Only one of them is signed and I sent the information on it to the Japanese embassy and they are looking into repatriate it to its original family. have a great trip!

Hi Roger, 

This is a noble goal, but it's very unlikely the original owner can be found. Even if your sword is signed, it would be signed by the swordsmith, and not the last person who carried it. There is no way to associate a swordsmith signature with most recent individual who carried it - UNLESS a surrender tag was included with that individuals family information. 

Long story short, don't give your sword away unless you're absolutely sure it's going to the right place. Nobody at the Japanese embassy in Colorado is qualified to make that determination, and they don't have some secret military personnel+sword list. Just, beware, because we've seen swords be "repatriated" and then end up on the auction sites months later. 

Best of luck,
-Sam

[Bruce Pennington]

Roger,

I still could use a shot of the facing side of the handguard, please 

[Bruce Pennington]

Pending a view of the handguard face, here are the 2 that are close in Plimpton's book:

 

Meiji 41 Patrolman's sword

 

1886 Warrant Officer sword

[RFM]

Hi Sam,

There is an official Japanese program thru the Japanese Embassy in Wash. DC.  They only try to find the family of the soldier.  The sword in question has both the swordsmith signature and the name of the officer (other side of the tang).   I submitted the pics and names over a year ago.  They told me it would be at least a year and a half if they could even find the soldier's family.  Last I checked they haven't been able to but they would like me to give them a few more months.    I do appreciate your thoughts on this though. 

Cheers,

Roger

 

 

[RFM]

Bruce, here are some more pics (no seppas).  Thanks for sending the Plimpton's book pages!  Wow, very nice!  That is my sword, but light years better.  Do you have any idea on how I might repair the handguard?  My sword has had a tough life but I like it much!  It's seen a lot of history.

[Bruce Pennington]

They had suggestions for the same problem, here:

Be sure to get a good Japanese sword cleaning kit.  They are easy to find online for around $13.

 

Here's a link for care and cleaning: Japanese Sword Care

[Scogg]

19 hours ago, RFM said:

The sword in question has both the swordsmith signature and the name of the officer (other side of the tang).   I submitted the pics and names over a year ago.  They told me it would be at least a year and a half if they could even find the soldier's family.  Last I checked they haven't been able to but they would like me to give them a few more months.    I do appreciate your thoughts on this though. 

Cheers,

Roger

 

 

Sounds like an interesting sword. Typically, you see the swordsmith name on one side of the nakago, and a date on the other.

 

I have heard of swords with the officers names inscribed on the nakago, but in my years of collecting i've never personally seen one. 

Thanks for sharing your sword with us.
Best of luck,
-Sam

[RFM]

The sword IS interesting.  When I bought it, I was very concerned that it was completely dull.  I sent pics of it to a friend and he asked to see the Saya.  The wood Saya was completely severed the entire length of the blade.  He surmised that follow-on owners had improperly displayed the sword for many years which had split the Saya and dulled the blade.  Additionally, the cloth wrappings on the Tsuka were heavily soiled (extremely soiled), leading me to speculate where the sword had seen conflict.  For that reason, I wanted to return the sword.  After many years in the Army, I felt the sword/Soldier spoke to me.  Kind of corny but that's what drove me to find it's owner's family.  

 

Some pictures are attached. 

 

西澤一守刀　Sword of Nishizawa Kazumori
昭和十八年　18th Year of Shōwa (1943)
Pic.2,
良重　Yoshishige

Yoshishige was the art-name of swordsmith, his real name was Komiyama Ryōzō 小宮山良三　（1902- ?) from Seki, Gifu Prefecture.

 

[Rawa]

Showato, untraditional blade. 

[Conway S]

Roger, 

 

One thing you should check on is whether  a Seki-stamped blade can be imported to Japan. They seem to still occupy a legal gray area. If it can’t be imported it might be destroyed before it even gets to a potential family member. The Japanese embassy folks might be under the impression you are trying to return an actual antique sword.

[Brian]

Pretty sure this IS a Showato, yip. And is illegal in Japan.

[RFM]

Thanks all!  Good to know, I will check!

[Scogg]

The seki stamp on the tang, that the red arrow in pointing to, is widely understood to identify non-traditionally made swords. Collectors refer to these as “showato”. 
 

Meaning this particular blade is not a Nihonto, and therefore recognized as a weapon in Japan. It would be illegal to own there, even if a relative carried it in WW2. 

Link for the showato info:

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/showato.htm

Link for sword law details:
https://www.jssus.org/nkp/japanese_sword_laws.html

 

Excerpt from the link: “Only traditionally made Nihonto can be licensed, i.e. swords made in Japan from Tamahagane 玉鋼 (and Shinto swords that are inscribed "Motte Namban-Tesu 以南蠻鐵" ["made using steel from the southern barbarians"]). This means in effect that it has to be either an antique, or made by a contemporary, licensed smith. Mass produced WWII swords (so called Showato昭和刀) and foreign made swords are not eligible for Torokusho.”

 

Beware trusting the embassy officials, as they might not know how to properly identify the difference. 
 

I do admire your goal and feelings toward your sword. I just encourage you to consider that fate placed it with you, and maybe that’s where it’s meant to be. 

All the best,

-Sam 

[RFM]

Thanks Sam, well said.