Mandarin Mansion - experience to share?

[omgPirates]

Hello!  This is my first post and I think I've been reading / lurking enough to feel comfortable here.

I've been learning about Nihonto for a short while - and I'm seriously considering making a purchase in the near (ish) future as I better understand Japanese history and the role of various smiths, etc.

One sword that really looks interesting to me is on Mandarin Mansion - this is likely out of my budget, but I was curious if anyone had experiences with them that they would be willing to share (publicly or privately).

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/juyo-soshu-yukimitsu

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. 
 

[Lewis B]

Thats a beautiful blade with a price to match. The provenance is also exceptional if the history is important.

Peter, the owner of MM has some wonderfully curated swords, so you can be sure you are getting some of the best examples available for sale in Europe from a retail source. The photos are well executed and the descriptions very informative. 

Sent you a PM. And welcome to the forum. 

[Brian]

@Peter D is one of our members, and also has dealer status here and his own dealer section. Being approachable like that, and the fact that dealers don't get listed here or last long if they are not reputable, tells you a lot.
Good to check on any dealer you are considering purchasing from. A listing here is always a good sign.

[Alex A]

Interesting site, shame i see "price on request", a real off put, sadly.

[Hoshi]

Hi Lou, 

 

I can highly recommend Mandarin Mansion. Peter does great and deep research on what he sells, along with wonderful photos and documentation. 

 

As for the sword, I've held it in hand on two occasions, and it is lovely. It has a highly imposing sugata with the broad shape of the kissaki, the position of the shinogi and the wide mihaba, while at the same time extremely fine jigane that is resplendent with jinie, where you feel the influence of Shintogo and the Awataguchi roots immediately. The hamon is very high quality with pure frosty clouds of nie, which is what you want for top Soshu.

 

It leaves a strong saeru impression - a Japanese praise word for swords that evokes brightness and sharpness. 

 

Very rare to see such high-end Soshu blades on the open market.  

 

 

[Sebuh]

Big fan of Yukimitsu and his work, and this blade in particular. Give me a few years to save up to buy it please 

[lonely panet]

its a nice work,  but i think the price might be eye watering

[Rivkin]

At times when I look at the site I tend to disagree with much of what is posted as item's descriptions, but some (or much?) of it is subjective, can be purely a matter of preference or personal opinion. 

[lonely panet]

Are you Sir, suggesting that hes  aiming his sales towards the overly wealthy and under educated?.

 

Or fluffing the facts

[Rivkin]

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

Are you Sir, suggesting that hes  aiming his sales towards the overly wealthy and under educated?.

Or fluffing the facts

 

As a seller at times, I have to attest many do prefer this demographic.

And it happens on autopilot when you sell you catch yourself pushing "the positive image".

[Brano]

9 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

As a seller at times, I have to attest many do prefer this demographic.

And it happens on autopilot when you sell you catch yourself pushing "the positive image".

Well Kirill - I have to say that such a statement is a bit unfair
Besides, you are also a seller as you said yourself and I assume that as a good seller you also emphasize positives and optimistic assumptions

If a Ford dealer said - well, in truth, Honda has fewer breakdowns and our service hours are twice as expensive, but we have higher fuel consumption - he probably wouldn't be successful in selling

If a seller doesn't include misleading information, but emphasizes sales arguments in a positive light, then he is just applying the right sales strategy

[Brano]

12 hours ago, lonely panet said:

Are you Sir, suggesting that hes  aiming his sales towards the overly wealthy and under educated?.

 

Or fluffing the facts

Most rich people are well educated
And to assume that the rich are mindlessly spending their money on a piece of metal in the form of a Japanese sword is, in my opinion, wrong
Of course, this happens sometimes - especially when selling through reputable auction houses
However, when selling through a specialized dealer - an uneducated rich person buys an unshortened Shinto or Shinshinto, which is healthy and nice and heavy ...
Why would he spend ten times as much for something like this? He doesn't understand what he is buying at all

[Rivkin]

If a Ford dealer said - well, in truth, Honda has fewer breakdowns and our service hours are twice as expensive, but we have higher fuel consumption - he probably wouldn't be successful in selling

If a seller doesn't include misleading information, but emphasizes sales arguments in a positive light, then he is just applying the right sales strategy

 

Yeap.

To me, there is a way dealer's descriptions are written, the rule of the genre. It is seldom the right place to wonder out loud if "jutetsu" is real or ponder if XVIth century Tulwar does have a chance to come out as XVIIth century one. Buying or selling, sometimes its just hard to be truly cynical and skeptical.

Ciceron "On honor" re: why one should not sell antiques. But then his solution was to teach a slave to sell them.

 

Then someone forwards the description and asks if its really XVIth century. And then I wonder if I am being overly skeptical when responding simply because I want to feel superior to "those dealers who say things that suit them"... Can't trust people who suggest dealer's description "is wrong and self-serving". Can't trust dealer's descriptions either. Can't trust myself, this one I learned many times.

 

Unfortunately the only way to make really good money in antique business is to catch a wave.

In 2000s it was Gulf, Russians, to an extent Chinese.

Were these collectors educated? Back then nobody was in the respective fields. Often big trades and investments happen when the field is young and emotions are high. Then comes the knowledge, except now there is little to buy, most of the great mysteries are solved and you've seen most of the things to be seen.

 

No, I would not rate the top 1% collectors in most fields as top 1% educated. 

"institutional" investors who believe in forced diversification of their portfolio and buy antiques as outliers because of their reduced correlation with stocks/property.

The dream of every antique dealer since they buy the most expensive items in what they believe to be a growing valuation field.

[Brian]

Not going to allow this. Dealers are what the name implies. I won't allow vague and unwarranted insinuations based on nothing.
 

[Rivkin]

11 minutes ago, Brian said:

Not going to allow this. Dealers are what the name implies. I won't allow vague and unwarranted insinuations based on nothing.
 

 

Specific list where I think descriptions are significantly diverging from what I believe to be the right description? It would be a rather large one, and the end result would still be "no, I don't think so, yes I think so" and back to square one - my opinion very often diverges significantly from the one expressed by the site. I can even assume in some cases it is the site description which is correct, and I am not.

It is what it is.

 

[Alex A]

2 hours ago, Brano said:

Most rich people are well educated
And to assume that the rich are mindlessly spending their money on a piece of metal in the form of a Japanese sword is, in my opinion, wrong
Of course, this happens sometimes - especially when selling through reputable auction houses
 

 

Im not talking about the dealer mentioned here.

 

There are dealers that specifically target wealthy individuals that lack the necessary knowledge, in fact do very well from it. You could say the same about many antiquity dealers of all kinds of antiques. 

 

Those that know what I'm referring to will know the dealer/dealers in question. 

 

Just a point that i felt needed a mention.

[Rawa]

Bigger fool theory

[Brian]

Why are we generalizing about dealers in a question about one?
Just disrespectful. Please start a new topic if you want to generalize.

[Hoshi]

Honestly, this is just distasteful @Rivkin. 

 

When Darcy was around, it was the same story of vague and unwarranted insinuations. 

 

Whenever a dealer offers a high-end object, I sense a certain resentful undertone in you, disguised as some sort of underhanded insinuation of inaccurate description or a subtle denunciation of the Japanese tradition of expertise in the matter. We all remember the "Green papers are mostly good" and "45K TH Masamune filling drawers" and so on. 

 

These sentiments come from a dark place.

 

Work on it, because It's genuinely a pity, as I find many of your contributions very valuable to the community, and I say this earnestly. 

[Jacques]

My mantra again, 

 

Never buy a sword even tokubetsu juyo without having had it in hands 

[Mushin]

Not wanting to further stray off topic here, but regarding dealers and Jacques' "mantra," it's not always possible to see a sword in hand. In places with no shows or local dealers, the internet is the only place for many to see and purchase swords. But Jacques is correct that a photo is often not enough. So, please be sure that when you buy online you have a minimum three-day inspection period to make sure that what you saw is what you got, and that it is what you wanted. If you don't you should be able to get a full refund, minus the postage to get the piece back. Most reputable dealers will do this. Yahoo and Ebay auction site holders as a general rule do not. So, as in all things, caveat emptor!

[Alex A]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Why are we generalizing about dealers in a question about one?
Just disrespectful. Please start a new topic if you want to generalize.

 

Delete what i said if comes across as disrespectful, no probs

 

Something Brano said touched a nerve, there are dealers willing to rip folks off on a daily basis, just wanted make that clear. Its not a rarity.

 

Again, it had nothing do with the firm mentioned at the start.

 

Jacques is right, blades ideally should be seen in hand, but that's not always possible, for many reasons.

[Rivkin]

4 hours ago, Hoshi said:

These sentiments come from a dark place.

Work on it, because It's genuinely a pity, as I find many of your contributions very valuable to the community, and I say this earnestly. 

 

This is unfortunately what happens when one tries to use "diplomatic language", i.e. "yes, some descriptions might be better than others, but it does not need to be interpreted as dealer's fault or ill intent", blah-blah. Then you read this stuff and wonder whether the "description issue" is not well understood, or ... ?

 

Lets be specific. Mandarin Mansion trades in many different fields. Question was - how reliable are the descriptions?

I obviously like Caucasus, for example. Mandarin Mansion has three items labeled as such. Consider each one of them: its not pick and choose.

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/caucasian-silver-niello-miquelet-pistol

Yes, its a Kubachi pistol, named after the place where they were decorated. The site states its 1800-1849. To understand the issue: similar pistols dating 1800-1835 are rare and worth a fortune.

95% of existing ones are from 1840-1870. Because many are signed and dated one can try to be a bit more specific with dating. Somewhat diminished skill, shallow surface... Probably 1852-1867? One could choose to be optimistic and argue for a slightly earlier date - but while there is a subjective element here, it only goes so far.

The site states "Not all plating is the same shade or finish; some appear to be working life replacements.". Referring most likely to the silver panels at the barrel's end.

Well, this "replacement piece" shows more simple work, shallower carving, niello which is relatively unstable, steady yellow tint of the silver itself, background zigzags which are lined up rather than appear as individual "dots", unlike the other pieces.

This is similar to 1900-1915 style, probably the subset associated with "souvenirs" made by Zhitomir Jews traveling around and doing small pieces here and there.

Unlikely a "working life replacement", more likely early XXth century collector replacing the lost portions.

 

Next piece:

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/dagestani-shashka-dated-1912

The site describes it as "Dagestani shashka dated 1912" with "Romanov monogram"

Presence of Imperial cipher on the hilt usually simple means it was an officer's sidearm and per regulations carries the cipher of the Emperor during whose reign the first officer rank has been bestowed. Coupled with the use of flowers on the back and the fact that the shashka hilt stacks with the scabbard rather than goes partially inside it - suggests it was made for an officer market. Which usually (but not always) means Vladikavkaz or other similar places, not Dagestan proper, though the style and very likely the maker are connected with Dagestan.

 

The site states the piece is signed and dated as "1912". The date however clearly looks like 1919. I can guess it was read as 1912 because then it would "match" the Imperial cipher.

However, the signature is clearly non-traditional (i.e. done by a typical city engraver working with watches and canes, not weapons), different and later compared to the rest of work.

Classic Civil War case when weapons in silver originally belonging to officers were given around as awards, pay, or simply traded, and signed to new owners.

Was "A.M. Melnikov, 1919" Red or White is a good question and I would argue the signature does answer it.

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/transcaucasian-kindjal

Not much to say here since not much is stated, and more importantly there are very few dated pieces. The site's opinions are fully plausible, though (subjectively) differ from mine.

 

I can work in the same way with other sections (Persian, Ottoman, Chinese, Japanese), forcing myself to very diplomatic language like "better photographs would help to ascertain whether the blade is not a XXth century replacement". More importantly, wasting considerable time.

 

Instead: short summary of my very personal, subjective opinion.

Chinese items - I am aware of the attribution/dating philosophy used, it has been around argued for and against, remains plausible. It comes with an interesting selection of items offered, some descriptions are really good, there is more or less nothing absolutely-horribly-wrong. I can guess who are the people the author talks to. 

I can't state the same about the other sections of Mandarin Mansion site and offerings.

In the end its buyer's responsibility to make a choice. With Japanese at least there are papers, so there are substantially fewer unknowns. For both buyer and seller. You are not going to get a completely bogus attribution, but the information presented while generally matching the name in papers might not be 100% applicable to the specific blade or 100% reflect the most modern thinking on the subject.

Rules of the genre.

[Rayhan]

Hello all

 

Well I believe in this case i can interject and put a few of the nonsensical commentaries on this expert (i cannot call him a dealer) to rest. 

 

This was my sword (bought from Darcy). I let go of it to Peter only because I felt he truly deserved to have the sword and no other interested party did nearly as much research on the blade before asking me to buy it (i have had offers on this blade people wouldn't believe) . He literally travelled to my location, took his initiative to see the sword in hand, he didn't make a commitment on the spot but after seeing the sword, thought many weeks about it before making the purchase. He came prepared with evidence and research from multiple sources and the amount of work that went into that would earn even the respect of people like @Rivkin and @Jacques who i think wouldn't have known where to start, indeed i was completely taken back by his dedication. And no, i dont need the money, i needed it to go to the right person.

 

The sword itself, it's beauty cannot be appreciated except in hand. The hataraki will keep the owner amazed for years with new discoveries constantly. The sugata is powerful and has a presence that could easily make this a one sword collection. There are less than 10 Yukimitsu with Kinzogan and only one with Kinzogan to the swords owner, that is this one. I believe this sword has all the elements you want in early Soshu, the jigane is a mix of Shintogo and Yukimitsu experimental flare done with pure elegance and the Hamon is like what we see Masamune doing in cases. 

 

Everyone going on here about someone they've never met or dealt with needs to appreciate that this gentleman had the right eye when he requested me to relinquish the sword to him and that was in a room with about another 30 juyo and TJuyo, he went for this and that says everything.  

 

He's an excellent student, teacher and researcher so I suggest you stick to what he is selling not how or why. 

 

[Gerry]

If there was ever a case of humble bragging...

 

Just kidding! Sounds like an impressive collection though, and in Singapore too, where owning swords isn't very well looked upon by the government.

 

[Brian]

Thank you Rayhan, I appreciate your input. I think that concludes this entire distasteful meander conclusively.