Mei or Gimei Tadahiro?

[Firstdive]

Hi,

 

Here is a Katana wich is described as Tadahiro 肥前國住近江大掾藤原忠廣.

For me it looks pretts legit. I compared the Mei with items I found online

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2024/art-of-Japan/a-hizen-katana-signed-hizen-kuni-ju-omi-no-daijo

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4461872 

 

 

Can someone Help me please?

 

 

[Ray Singer]

My feeling is gimei. Was this an auction purchase out of Japan?

[Rawa]

Yeah if it was bought in Japan why no papers? Especially in this shape.

 

There are some diferences in mei and wonder why mei starts in nagashi after repolish. Executed not signed.

 

 

[Mark]

temper and boshi doesn't look like anything i have seen in Hizen   shape looks questionable but possible

[Jacques]

Gimei, the space between the kanji is not correct

[CSM101]

Hizen Tadahiro

 

 

[Ray Singer]

The Tadahiro reference example oshigata above is a shodai (Musashi Daijo) rather than a nidai (Omi Daijo), which the posted sword purports to be.

[CSM101]

Better?

 

 

[Ray Singer]

Here are some other examples of the second generation's mei with the Omi Daijo title. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q="Omi+Daijo+"+"+Tadahiro+"+site%3Aaoijapan.net&oq="Omi+Daijo+"+"+Tadahiro+"+site%3Aaoijapan.net+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTIzMTU3ajBqNKgCDrACAfEFO1CIMox-tNA&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Firstdive]

Hi together,

 

Sorry for my late reply, I wasn`t expecting that much :-)

 

Thanks for all your efforts. This helps me a lot, and is a great learning resource.

Almost a little like a community, online Shinsa

But with a lot more information.

With all this resources, thanks @CSM101, it`s easy to see, where the difference in Boshi is.

And I could also just see the different spacing between the Kanji after @Jacques mentioned it.

This really helps to get the neccesary feeling where to look, and how close it has to be.

Can you say something about the quality or age of the Blade, since obviously there are alomst no not Gimei Swords coming to the west, this looks like the only way to own and study a at least authentic Katana!?

 

Best wishes to everyone

 

Jörg

 

PS: How can I reffer to a user? (solved)

[Rawa]

Use @Firstdive "@" and type nick.

[Firstdive]

Thanks @Rawa :-)

[Jacques]

I'd also like to point out another feature of Tadahiro's nidai mei: the size of the kanji decreases as you go down from Hizen towards the hiro kanji (requires a trained eye).

[Firstdive]

Thanks @Jacques for pointing that out! 

I would never have seen that, or better I would have told myself this is variation. But it looks like, I´m missjudging the precision of these ancient Smiths massivly 

[Jacques]

It gets even more complicated when it comes to daimei, and there are more of them than you might think.

[Firstdive]

I fully believe that. Are these minor diffrences or is it pretty visible a student has signed it?

When such a Sword gets to NBTHK, is it requiered to send proof of that, to get the certificaton?

[Jacques]

Dai-mei or dai saku mei are considered shoshin by the NBTHK, and they know how to detect them 

The daimei of the Tadayoshi sandai can be recognized by the yasurime, which are slightly katte-agari, and the left tagane of the Hiro kanji square, which is engraved in the opposite direction.

[Firstdive]

Incredible for what things to look for, and next to that I think there is a lot of ancestry and history knowledge neccessary, to even know wich one has even the possibility of a Dai-Mei.

Is it believed they did that for the reason to differentiate from the Master?

Or in other Words, was that common for every/most Dai-Mei?

Are there tables wich represent the actual believed ancestrys, and connections of ancient Smiths?

[Jacques]

It was a way of recognizing who had done the work and this practice is almost universal, with the possible exception of the Mishina school. . 

 

Quote

Are there tables wich represent the actual believed ancestrys, and connections of ancient Smiths?

If you're referring to genealogies, it's well documented.

[Firstdive]

ok, nice to know!

 

23 minutes ago, Jacques said:

If you're referring to genealogies, it's well documented.

Where can I find that?

[Jacques]

You need to buy some books like this one 

https://www.amazon.com/Genealogies-Schools-Japanese-Swordsmiths-Markus/dp/3839183472 

[Firstdive]

Ok...since I came into this Nihonto science, I thought it´s very choatic, but for me it seems this is only cause eveything is in Books, wich is fine, I love books, but it`s very hard to find even an index of the Token Bijutsu, in which issue, which Nihonto is appriciated. Also as a beginner which only has a Gimei Katana, who wants to know more about it, it`s almost impossible to even come close to a valid answer.

Am I wrong, or would a Table/Spreadsheat/Database, which holds every smith and his corresponding properties, and possible variations, could help a lot to find fitting smiths?

For example, within the search mask, everybody could enter, Sori, shape, messurements, Boshi Type, Nakago details and so on. The more features entered, the shorter gets the list of possible Smiths.

Eventually combined with Links, Pictures, and references to Books with recognized originals of this Smith.

It would be also a great learnig source and centralization of knowledge thats otherwise almost impossible to get.

Do I oversimplify things here?

[Ray Singer]

Jörg, it would be very misleading to attempt identifying swordsmiths by dimensions. There is a considerable range of variation of dimensions among the body of each swordsmiths work, and very, very often the dimensions have changed over time (machiokuri, various degrees of suriage, etc). However, you can research and compare mei to check validity with a number of references which are available such as the toko jiten, nihonto koza, etc.

https://japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/book/sword-books/b738-nihon-toko-jiten-by-fujishiro/

For swordsmiths who are very well know and documented such as nidai Tadahiro, there are a large number of references to look at including the English language Hizento reference below by Roger Robertshaw (who is a member of this group).

https://hizento.com/

Best regards,

Ray

 

  

[Firstdive]

Hi,

 

It´s not so much anymore about the Smith discussed here, in my case it´s a Gimei Kagemitsu,

 

I understand that, but, I meant also things like, Hada Pattern, Typ of Hamon, Kissaki, Boshi and all other things that where used to identify the Smith.

I watched the Video about Kantei from @Markus, and he described it as 3 Steps. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1C7Z69GQAE

It´s also not that hard (for a experienced Person, not me ) to identify a Mei, or better identify a Gimei, of a smith, wich has a signature on it.

But if it`s a Gimei, from a point of identification, I would more consider it as Mumei, and my goal would be to find out who the real Smith was. Almost like a Kantei. Even in regards to Dai-Mei, it would help, since the realtions of the smiths where already represented in this Spreadsheet.

Since it looks like a Fact, in old Japan was more Product Piracy than these days from China ;-),there are more Gimei then real Mei, and mine is for sure Gimei, only checking the Mei would help nothing.

I also got told, if the Smith worked in someone elses Tradition it´s impossible to identify, what I fully understand, but I also got told, that often Traders (or better traitors )signed the Swords, and this would mean, the blade was made how the original Smith had done it.

Are people in here not interested on the original Smith, once it`s a Gimei? I heard also about removing the wrong signature for shinsa, but I want to have my Sword as it is :-)

But also the other way around, it has a Mei, and with this Table, it should be easier to find the corosponding properties, and also resources for comparison, which should be seen on a authentic piece.

It would also get a lot easier to find the right places to look, like which book, magazin, website, has information to exactly this smith.

It would also be a really nice app...first Kantei app^^

 

[Jacques]

Quote

But if it`s a Gimei, from a point of identification, I would more consider it as Mumei, and my goal would be to find out who the real Smith was.

This is where the problem lies, we are only interested in the mei if the work is comparable to that of the smith being copied, and we have a very good example with Kajihei who was talented enough to imitate the work (hada, hamon etc.) of high-level swordsmiths, only a thorough study of the mei could allow to see that this sword was gimei.

[Firstdive]

For sure this would never eleminate the examination of a Sword, but it would help everyone a lot, to narrow down, what smith it was. And my intend is`t to verify anything for granted, it´s more for those, like me, and people which doesen`t have a whole bibliothek in their Heads, who just want to know, what Smith made his (with room for errors), and also getting easier access to where to find information for comparison.

And even your example applies to some pieces, in some others, like I mentioned, like the trader bought it as Mumei, from a not so well known Smith (who doesn`t know about getting involved in such a thing) and signed it, it will still have the features of the orignial Smith.

Eventually there are some peices out there sigend as Gimei but only nobody cares about them, Swords from rather great Smiths could even never be recognized. With this Table, Sword with certain propperties could be found and sent in for further examintation. Only sitting down and identify every feature step by step, would be a amazing lesson for every beginner.

I´m really a noob, but only the shear amount of Gimei, couldn`t mean almost every second smith was a Copy Cat.

And in my situation, my Mei was a pretty obviously Gimei (at least for everyone here in this Forum ), so if the smith´s intention was to make a copy, he either didn`t Copy the Mei well and made the Sword only from descriptions, or someone else, for what ever reason signed it, and therefore the smith should/could eventually be identified by his features!? 

And shoulden`t that apply for most Gimei?

At least for my sword this must be true, since most of you who checked it, guessed it to be late Muromachi, which must mean it has features which only appeared about 200 years later!?

 

Honestly, I don`t know if I would appreciate a Sword from such a great craftsman, like the mentioned Kajihei, who was able to copy every master in such perfection, even more than probably some of the originals 

Probably Gimei needs his own category in Nihonto 

 

Kind regards

[Brian]

Your problem with the above is that it takes an incredible amount of knowledge and research before you can even describe the details in a sword, so how do you look up those features in a table and find the smith? Even advanced collectors can't agree on hada...whether something is konuka or nashiji or muji or whatever....even lots of debate deciding if hada is ko-mokume or itame or how much itame is considered a kantei point. Then you need to know exactly what hataraki you are looking at. Can you identify inazuma, chikei, sunagashi, kinsuji, uchinoke etc? Are you able to identify a complex hamon pattern? Do you know your toran from your togari from your choji or hakko or midare or....?
Are you able to kantei an era based on shape of the sword? You can't get very far until you can do that, in conjunction with nakago patina and shape.
You can't look up a smith until you have become some what of an expert in identifying all of these features, otherwise how do you look them up? And if you know all of those, then you are likely halfway towards being able to kantei a blade anyways.
See the problem? You can't use an app unless you already know enough that you probably don't need an app. And then you'll find that general kantei points vary wildly with the same smith anyways. They didn't follow rules every time. And are you prepared to capture the kantei points of tens of thousands of smiths? Because there are more than that. 
Hate to say it, but most of us (myself included) aren't even capable of properly 'reading' a sword's features accurately, so looking it up is a wild shot in the dark at best.
If it was simple, the "app" would exist already and shinsa panels would be working off a spreadsheet themselves, instead of sitting with dozens of old books and pictures comparing mei and features and eras.

[Firstdive]

16 hours ago, Firstdive said:

Do I oversimplify things here?

Thanks, this was the answer I was looking for.

Sorry if I annoy you all, I allways need some more explaination. I´m reading at the moment "Connisseurs Book of Japanese Swords" and the translator mentions in his Intro, often a wrong answer (here question) provides often more insight for the Person learning, then the right answer. 

Honestly I thought, it`s more towards 80.000 Smiths, but since @Jacquesposted the Book about the relationships between Smiths, I thought, when this data is allready availabel, it could be done as open source Community Project, and the less important smiths/schools/Regions, would be recognizable through inheritance. And more famous smiths which are well documented, would make up the foundation.

Also in my mind there was a outline of a Sword, and as the features got entered, it changes it´s look, according to the detected things. Possibly with a slider which could show the variance of for example Hada, or Hamon Patterns. Eventually little pictures inside the entryfields, so there is a visible representation. And without seeing the List I never tought only with features entered into a Form, there is only one specific smith as answer, more a List of more of more or less likely smiths/eras/Regions/schools. I got also the idea the wider Range like Era/School/Region, is mostly given by more visible elements, like shape, Hamon type, Kissaki, Boshi and so on...oversimplified 

But I never even thought about building this database, cause I fully know, I have no clue, but I also thought, only here in this Forum, are so many competent and engaged People they possibly love building a centralized database, it must be even easier together with other enthusiasts around the world.  It was only a mind game for finding a Solution that helps me getting the answers for my Problem and eventually some others could use it too.

And I hope I offend nobody in here, but this Nihonto thing is a bit dusty, so I thought, lets ask why it`s never been done.

 

Thanks for all your insights!