Gunto tsuba?

[Rawa]

I got this tsuba 15 years ago. Some sellers claims that similar tsuba are from NCO gunto. Anyone here encountered this pattern?

[Scogg]

It is not for an NCO gunto. 

I have seen a near identical one in reference to Civilian Gunto. I've attached a photo of it - listed as "fig leaf".

See comments from @Bruce Pennington on the thread linked below:
https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/32654-iron-civilian-gunto-tsuba/

Hope this helps,
-Sam

[The Blacksmith]

Not exactly matching, but similar, mine had a bamboo motive, and matching fuchi kashira. The blade on mine was signed Ido Hiro Mitsu saku. Showa.

[Kiipu]

I think this is an early Shōwa 昭和 (1926-1945) era crossguard for civilian samurai-style swords.  Many of which got drafted later on for the war effort.

[Rawa]

I thought so  Its my first piece. @Scogg item photo is like from same mold. Im not looking for a $ value. Nice to know it have some historic meaning.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, The Blacksmith said:

Not exactly matching, but similar, mine had a bamboo motive, and matching fuchi kashira. The blade on mine was signed Ido Hiro Mitsu saku. Showa.

Russ, I don't have yours on file, may get some pics?

 

32 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

I think this is an early Shōwa 昭和 (1926-1945) era crossguard for civilian samurai-style swords.  Many of which got drafted later on for the war effort.

@Spartancrest

Would love to hear your thoughts on that, Thomas.  I had lumped them in with the other Gunzoku specific tsuba patterns, but that's just due to thier general shape and that they are found on the typical styled gunto with leather cover.

 

I have 7 on file, some in full civil fittings w/leather cover, and some with Type 98 kabutogane and/or tusba.  I even have one that was fully Type 98, but had a grape leaf fuchi.

[The Blacksmith]

1 minute ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Russ, I don't have yours on file, may get some pics?

 

 

Bruce, I know that similar koshirae have been mentioned on the forum before. I will try and find a link for them as I do not have pictures of mine unfortunatley.

[Kiipu]

I have never seen any Japanese documentation that specified a gunzoku 軍属 pattern crossguard.  I just assumed gunzoku used whatever crossguard that was readily available and economical at the sword fittings shops.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, sure.  The only reference we have is Ohmura's page, showing the bamboo, sakura, and "mallow" shapes on the Gunzoku swords - Army Civilian Swords - Ohmura

[Rawa]

Is gunzoku similar to Imperial Japanese civil defense force in any way?

As gunzoku was militarised IJA personel maybe last effort units of cdf had some minimum of armament?

And they were using any sword available with those tsuba/leftover gunto?

[Kiipu]

Just now, Bruce Pennington said:

The only reference we have is Ohmura's page,

 

And all those swords depicted are actually civilian samurai-style swords pressed into military service.  I would not venture so far as to say these crossguards are for gunzoku use only.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just now, Kiipu said:

And all those swords depicted are actually civilian samurai-style swords pressed into military service.  I would not venture so far as to say these crossguards are for gunzoku use only.

I have:

1939 Kanemichi, full civil koshirae (leather missing)

No Date Kanesada, Showa stamped, full Type 98 except with Budo fuchi

ND Kanezane, Kokuin, Kikusui on blade, full civil w/leather

ND Kanemitsu, leafy Kiri on nakao, incomplete fittings - wood saya missing kagutogane, Army menugi

ND Mumei, possibly pre-WWII, full Type 98 except Budo tsuba

ND Yoshitsugu, full civil w/leather

 

Looks like I only have that 6, not 7.  Two of them were the same sword.

 

Most seem to be WWII era blades, however the majority, 4 of 6, were fully civilian fitted before their impression into service.

 

Another thought - These "Gunzoku" tsuba seem to be more mass produced than your run of the mill civil tsuba, simply based upon the fact that we see "many" of them compared to the purely civil tsuba that we see on civil swords fitted for the war, which are individualistic and random.  What does that mean?  I guess we are guessing (beside Ohmura's page).  

Another thought - If I were a regular IJA officer, would I buy a sword with a "civil" tsuba or one with an army tsuba? 

 

Just brain-storming here.

[Rawa]

Maybe main difference is in who was buying? Soldier is obligated with specific uniform and weapon requirements. Civil forces in late war circumstances forced soften aproach towards it.

[Kiipu]

1 hour ago, Rawa said:

Is gunzoku similar to Imperial Japanese civil defense force in any way?

 

No, gunzoku are civilians working for the military.  They wore uniforms but with different rank insignia.

Gunzoku Photograph

[Bruce Pennington]

47 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Civil forces in late war circumstances forced soften aproach towards it.

According to Nick Komiya, Warrelics, the Gunzoku had the right to wear the same swords, both officer and NCO, as their equivelants in the IJA.  The only specified item for them was the all-brown tassel, but our only source for that is a Uniform Regulation change of 1943.  So, before that, as far as any uniform regulation we know of, swords of Gunzoku could be the identical thing we see from IJA personnel including the tassels.  So, the idea that there was a specific Gunzoku tusba (and associated other fittings) was generated by Ohmura's work (I'm away from my books and don't know if Dawson or Fuller referenced this topic).

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

I think this is an early Shōwa 昭和 (1926-1945) era crossguard for civilian samurai-style swords. 

That is what I have been led to believe - I was once told they were the equivalent to the "Home Guard" - This thread popping up is an odd coincidence as last week I was getting very nostalgic and wanted to buy one of these as I had exchanged mine, for a book years ago. A relatively clean one was selling for 5,000 yen and I was the only bidder - alas the auction was withdrawn at the last second. Re-listed now at a higher price I don't feel it deserves.

  https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1184599642   I once saw one, that the dealer described as "signed" Ichi - but in reality it was scratched as a single line!! Literally ONE for the books. 

 

More of these guards on this thread:

 

[The Blacksmith]

@Bruce Pennington  Bruce, I haven't as yet found the thread with the tsuba with the bamboo motif, but if you look at Military Swords of Japan 1869-1945, it is shown on page 47 in the centre.

The sword that I had, was signed Ido Hiromitsu saku. I do not honestly remember if it was dated too. The tsuka had  black tsuka ito and the fuchi and kashira matched the tsuba. The same was rather poor quality as I recall. The wooden saya had a leather combat cover. IIRC, there was also a simple sarute.

A quick question here, would this be a gunzoku sword, or could an officer elect to take what is basically a civilian katana into combat instead of the standard shin-gunto katana?

 

Sorry that I couldn't, so far, find that thread on the forum, but I will!

 

NB. Going back a bit through this thread, I just noticed that Ohmura shows these fittings on his page, third weapons down! 

[Bruno]

I have the same pattern.

 

My understanding is that these brass tsuba are from 1930' made for iaido and refitted for gunto.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

A quick question here, would this be a gunzoku sword, or could an officer elect to take what is basically a civilian katana into combat instead of the standard shin-gunto katana

The answer to both is yes! Like I was discussing with Thomas,, we have no documentation to prove that the great leaf pattern was tied to the Gunzoku like the Sakura and bamboo patterns depicted in Dawson and Ohmura, but they could be. But officers were also allowed to use civilian blades ref fitted for the war. The fitting came in various degrees of completion.

[The Blacksmith]

Thank you Bruce. I had wondered about officers using civilian mounted katana in combat, other than the so called tank officers wazizashi that we sometimes see. That said, I did have, as mentioned elsewhere,  an Echizen Ju Harima no Daijo Shigetaka katana that was in civilian mounts that belonged to the officer commanding a prisoner of war camp during WWII.

 

Thanks again.

[Kiipu]

To clarify, my comments above were about swords made in the early Shōwa 昭和 (1926-1945) era and not older swords repurposed for military use.

 

On this forum, we tend to think more in terms of traditional Japanese sword craftsmanship versus the economical mass production of swords.  If one keeps in mind the resurgence of interest in swords in the 1930s and 1940s, one can better understand the need for parts made in quantity (and not quality).  I think one is either looking at high end blades and parts made by craftsmen for the wealthy or swords made on an assembly line for the working class with a modest income.  In my opinion, these tsuba that are illustrated above and in the links are intended for the working class.

Seki stamped Kanemori in handachi mounts on Yahoo

Inherited Sword, looking for help Identifying maker.

[Bruce Pennington]

That thought occurred to me last night as I was thinking about it, too. With the resurgence of the samurai styled swords of the 1930s there was a massive demand. I suspect there were a company or two that started mass producing these civil tsuba to meet that demand.