Kawachi-no-kami Kunisuke on Ebay

[ugarf13]

Dear all,

 

I came across this blade on ebay, sold by Komonjo:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/J324-Japanese-Samur ... 1e590e9ebe

 

I recently started my journey in the nihonto world and I would appreciate any comments/info about the blade and the organization that issued the papers.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Best regards,

 

Umberto

[Chishiki]

Hi Umberto. Sorry no-one has answered your question so I will try to give an opinion. A friend of mine far more knowledgeable than me feels the mei/signature of this sword may not be correct for 1st generation, unless someone has a example of a genuine mei showing the 'kunisuke' kanji structured the same as this one. As to the person who issued the paper? I don't know of him so cannot comment.

 

The blade itself has been severely shortened (machi okuri) this is where the machi have been moved up the blade to shorten the cutting edge. Undesirable to see a severe shortening like this. Also the placement of the signature indicates the sword has been shortened from the end as well. If this was done correctly if should be cut 'kiri', straight across.

 

Just some advice regarding papers. If you want a sword with papers I suggest you look for one with modern NBTHK Hozon papers as they are the premier group in Japan. NTHK next and then all the other sword shop papers and individual appraisals I would place below. Just my opinion.

 

If buying off ebay you should go carefully and not simply believe that if a sword has a paper it is correct and genuine. A good example would be the following sword. Refer to http://cgi.ebay.com.au/J267-Japanese-Sa ... 255725fd0b

 

This sword is being sold as a kotetsu, but if this sword was genuine it would be far more valuable than the seller is asking, and if gimei/fake far less. This sword has an apparent old NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper.

 

It's a difficult road for new collectors.

 

 

Regards

 

Mark

[ottou812]

This sword is being sold as a kotetsu, but if this sword was genuine it would be far more valuable than the seller is asking, and if gimei/fake far less. This sword has an apparent old NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper.

 

The Kotetsu sold in the Christie's Compton Collection auction in 1992 sold for $7700usd. What the seller is asking for his Kotetsu seems reasonable and don't sound like it would be a gimei.

[Jean]

The greatest Shinto smiths in the seventeenth century were : Inoue Shinkai and Kotetsu.

 

I am sure all NMB members are ready to buy a genuine ubu Kotetsu at 10k$... :D :D

 

By the way, how many genuine Rembrandt have you seen sold on e-bay?

[ottou812]

The greatest Shinto smiths in the seventeenth century were : Inoue Shinkai and Kotetsu.

 

I am sure all NMB members are ready to buy a genuine ubu Kotetsu at 10k$... :D :D

 

By the way, how many genuine Rembrandt have you seen sold on e-bay?

 

By inference, the one sold in the Compton collection was also a gimei. Whoever bought it back then should have asked for their money back.

 

What would a genuine ubu Kotetsu go for? Please enlighten me and others. I'm here to learn if you're willing to share such information.

[Jean]

James,

 

Just search the web I am not going to give you any information and this for educational purpose :D :D . You must know in this hobby what you are buying and what is the market prices for smiths.

 

http://www.iidakoendo.com/

 

Here is a link to a Shinkai sword (Izumi no kami Kunisada)

 

http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/a100.htm

 

They had a Kotetsu on sale where there was no price but just : "please inquire"

 

another Shinkai :

 

http://www.nihonto.com/shinkaidaisho.html

 

For your info Kotetsu blades are much more sought after and rarer...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The Kotetsu from the Compton collection has great chances to be gimei

[ottou812]

James,

 

Just search the web I am not going to give you any information and this for educational purpose :D :D . You must know in this hobby what you are buying and what is the market prices for smiths.

 

It's very easy to tell someone to search the web for the information we seek. Do you truly comprehend the vastness of information available on the internet? The information found on the web must be highly scrutinized for it contain much misleading and incorrect information. Sorting through what's correct and what's not is a never-ending process called learning. Even information from reputable sources can be wrong. Maybe Christie's should have pulled the Kotetsu auction if it had known that it was a gimei to begin with. Maybe it did know it was a gimei and gave an estimation of $6-8000 for that lot. There are no databases of prices for the various swordsmiths available at my fingertips that I can reference. Even if there were, the prices would be a collection from auctions and online sales. Figuring out Nihonto prices is not as easy as opening up a greensheet (weekly wholesale prices for U.S. currency) for swords. Until there is something like that for this hobby, we all rely on the knowledgable people, websites, and various auction catalogs to figure out the pricing for our hobby. And even then, one should buy what one likes and not for the name or the value.

[ottou812]

Hi,

 

The Kotetsu from the Compton collection has great chances to be gimei

 

And information from the internet is to believed, Kotetsu has made only 31 swords with his true mei. :?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Don't believe all that internet says, the Nihontô Meikan shows 50 different mei for Kotetsu.

[Jean]

Don't believe all that internet says, the Nihontô Meikan shows 50 different mei for Kotetsu.

 

Jacques is right :

 

Kotetsu has made only 31 swords with his true mei.

 

To my knowledge he has not made any with his false mei

 

To simplify : All being equal, Chu saku smith, Chu saku price, Jo saku smith, Jo saku price, Saijo ...

 

Now you have an idea of what happened at Christies'. Just a reminder, a sword signed Kotetsu is not necessarily a sword made by Kotetsu

[paulb]

James,

I am coming in to this late and without sight of the Christies catalogue but something to be aware of is the langauge they and other auction houses use regarding attribution and authenticity, not only for swords but for paintings and other works.

roughly generalised some of the terms used include:

1. By kotetsu (in their opinion it is by the named smith)

2. Signed Kotetsu (thats what it says but there may be some doubt)

3. Attributed to (they dont necessarily share the opinion)

 

In addition many of the guarantees large auction houses offer regading authenticity are not applied to Japanese Swords or other works. There are just too many good fakes. So they let the market decide whether it is right or not. In reality and considering that every top dealer in the world is likely to have viewed what is on offer there is very little liklihood of an authentic work by such a cherished smith as Kotetsu selling for less than its true market value.

It is a hope and dream we all start with but the reality is alas a lot different.

Best Regards

Paul

[Eric H]

At first glance at this alleged Kunisuke shodai, an extremely wild hamon, uncommon for this smith leaps in the eyes. In fact there are swords made different from the masters normal style, they are called "kawari deki" or mutant. I assume a sword in the Juyo-status shows in all aspects a smith's characteristics. Herewith 3 pics from a Juyo Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke shodai, 76.65 cm, priced 1'350 man Yen ($ 128,000).

Eric

[ottou812]

I guess the thread got a little sidetracked.

 

Anyways, the Kotetsu sold in Christie's Compton collection stated:

 

INSCRIBED NAGASONE OKISATO NYUDO KOTETSU

 

Later:

 

Tameshigiri kin-zogan, dated Kanbun 1, attestation by Yamano Kaemon

 

 

 

Another Kotetsu from the 2004 Christie's auction.

[ottou812]

priced 1'350 man Yen ($ 128,000).

Eric

 

I think your math is a little off.

[Bruno]

Gentlemen,

 

I have a simple question to ask about that, on the previous Ebay link we saw a Koketsu sword with NBTHK papers for cheap price of 10k$. Jean was suggesting with sens of humor that it could be a "fake"and he is probably right.

 

I am not surprised that auction houses whatever famous they are sell sometime fake items, but I am very surprised that the Koketsu seems to be a fake with NBTHK papers. How is that possible

 

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/J267-Japanese-Sa ... 255725fd0b

 

Best regards

[Eric H]

I think your math is a little off.

Correction: should be 1'150 man Yen

Eric

[paulb]

Hi James,

I think (opinion not necessarily fact) the use of the term inscribed means that they do not believe it was an authentic signature.

Regards

Paul

[Jean]

INSCRIBED NAGASONE OKISATO NYUDO KOTETSU

 

Yes it is "inscribed " which does not mean it has been made by.

 

Be very wary about the way things are presented in auctions.

 

Imagine you buy it and put it to shinsa and that it is pinked. You sue Christie's in court for selling a fake. You'll loose because yes it is written Kotetsu on the tang but they have never said it was made by him .....

[Jacques]

I guess the thread got a little sidetracked.

 

Anyways, the Kotetsu sold in Christie's Compton collection stated:

 

INSCRIBED NAGASONE OKISATO NYUDO KOTETSU

 

Later:

 

Tameshigiri kin-zogan, dated Kanbun 1, attestation by Yamano Kaemon

 

Another Kotetsu from the 2004 Christie's auction.

 

Why i say that Kotetsu is surely gimei:

 

Kotetsu had numerous ways of writing his mei and amongst them, there were two major periods concerning the writing of the Ji KO 虎 called Hane-Tora and Hako-Tora (see picture below). Hako-Tora began in Kanbun Yonnen (1664)

 

On this blade we have a tameshi-mei dated from Kanbun gannen (1661) and a mei engraved in the Hako-tora style....

 

[Bruno]

So how this Kotetsu can be a fake with NBTHK paper? Just wondering....

 

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/J267-Japanese-Sa ... 255725fd0b

[Jean]

Bruno,

 

read carefully this article :

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sw ... se_sword_8

 

Remember what I posted this morning about the Compton collection.

[Bruno]

Jean,

 

Will read this article carefully but did not read yet your post about COMPTON collection.

 

Thanks

[Bruno]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/J267-Japanese-Sa ... 255725fd0b

 

So fake NBTHK paper means fake Kotetsu sword. Nice blade anyway.

[rkg]

Here's another shodai Kunisuke mei - the sword in quesion's mei doesn't seem to look a whole lot like it, but what do I know...

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Eric H]

the sword in quesion's mei doesn't seem to look a whole lot like it, but what do I know...

unusual in "tachi mei", would be interesting to see the whole nakago for better interpretation.

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I would say the Kunisuke in question seems not genuine, i checked my books and noticed that all the blade made by shodai Kunisuke have their mekugi ana pierced between the ji chi 内 and the ji Kami 守, it is not the case on this sword.

[ottou812]

Yes it is "inscribed " which does not mean it has been made by.

 

Be very wary about the way things are presented in auctions.

 

Christie's use "inscribed" for items without papers, without attestation, or certainty that it could be genuine.

"signed" for items with papers, certainty that it is genuine.

"attributed" for items mumei, with papers or attestation but without certainty that it is genuine.

 

Even the Masamune in Compton's auction has only an attribution "to Masamune". Even Compton suspected it was a mumei Sa even with the attribution.

 

Caveat emptor

[Chishiki]

So fake NBTHK paper means fake Kotetsu sword.

Bruno you well done! You got it.

 

Colin McDonald composed the following poem regarding the selling of gimei swords with suspect papers.

 

"the manifestly manipulative rock spiders shadowy web, only allows the unsuspecting young to be caught and then unscrupulously fed upon until they are sucked dry!."

 

 

Mark

[John A Stuart]

Gosh Mark, That is so depressing. It only illustrates the fact that one should avoid webs until a level of maturity is reached. John