The Okegawa-dou: Deconstructing Pop History

[Luc T]

an interesting zunari Barry, thanks for sharing this.  

[Miura]

On 5/6/2023 at 6:41 PM, Luc T said:

it's all a very logical evolution, from haramaki or domaru to marudou.  

Look at this one.  marudou.   c14 prooved +-1575.

it was found  on the east side of lake Biwa, where it popped up in the seventies.

hon kozane, tsutsumi and sugake laced.

 

The point is that a lot more mogamido ar found in the east of Japan, in high and low quality.  most of the time, they are executed very sober, as can be expected.

in the Yamato and Owari region however, they are rather high ranking stuff, with a lot of colours.

Luc, you frequently quote very precise dates for your carbon 14 tests.   Are you using AMS or traditional C14 ?   Also what are the spreads for the various possibilities?  One problem with the era in question is that is that things were changing so rapidly precise dates would really help for a greater understanding, but having a strong archeological background and having done such testing on various items myself, I know that specific dates are impossible.  Even a spread of 20 years would help put things into perspective.  Thank you.

[Luc T]

2 hours ago, Miura said:

Luc, you frequently quote very precise dates for your carbon 14 tests.   Are you using AMS or traditional C14 ?   Also what are the spreads for the various possibilities?  One problem with the era in question is that is that things were changing so rapidly precise dates would really help for a greater understanding, but having a strong archeological background and having done such testing on various items myself, I know that specific dates are impossible.  Even a spread of 20 years would help put things into perspective.  Thank you.

Indeed Andy, there is always a margin of ~20 years (or more).  I use the middle of the timeframe as a quick tool.  But it never is exact.

in this,case, I have to look it up. I use C14, executed by the KIK in Brussels (outstanding reputation)

[GN174]

Arthur you might find this link and download of interest if you have not already seen it, 

 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271379447_Neutron_diffraction_characterization_of_Japanese_armour_components

[Miura]

9 hours ago, GN174 said:

Arthur you might find this link and download of interest if you have not already seen it, 

 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271379447_Neutron_diffraction_characterization_of_Japanese_armour_components

Hi Graham,

i read the article. Thank you. For those who cant sort through the scientific mumbo jumbo the basic conclusion was that iron from different helmets in different workshops showed different compositional makeup and surface texture due to the way that the iron was worked or produced. 
Some problems with the survey were:

1. They assumed all the iron tested was domestic iron.

2. That the items were made during the working periods when the makers working with the names signed on the helmets were active- this helps to narrow down trends if dates can be confirmed.

3. one thing that i noticed, is that the lack of understanding of Japanese armor making led to some interesting data not being understood and thus perhaps misinterpreted.  This is understandable though, as there are very few people trained in more than one discipline these days. 
 

what i did like about the paper is the interesting raw data from the analytical procedure though in the end, with a very scientific way of saying it: different workshops = different methods and techniques, same workshops = likely same iron source and same methods. Which is what would be expected due to the particular types of helmets examined. 
Id suggest several control experiments that would likely provide more meaningful data sets, though I do respect what they were attempting to do. 

 

[b.hennick]

Thanks for a good read! I'm sure that it received TLC.

[Miura]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:49 AM, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Ah, that is fair, thank you for the clarification, Luc. Too bad then, though I'm curious if there are cases of those made in ways that wouldn't hamper the defensive capabilities of the armor. Then I'll say that Nio Dou are the exception to what I said above haha. I really like the concept of appearing as something otherwordly, and the Nio Dou Gusoku usually are great for that result, plus they're reminding of Greek bell cuirasses.

Hi Tidiane,

if you have facebook, you can see how an okegawa dou is made from the  iron up. I restored from the base components a ground up restoration of an early 17th century hotoke dou. Its on Miura Anjin samurai art page:

 

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100092385756447

 

though Nio dou were by and large uchidashi, some have a very heavy moriage component. But are based off of horizontal plates and stem from okegawa. It is said that multiplates helped prevent urushi from cracking with expanding and contracting. 

 

 

 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

20 hours ago, Miura said:

Hi Tidiane,

if you have facebook, you can see how an okegawa dou is made from the  iron up. I restored from the base components a ground up restoration of an early 17th century hotoke dou. Its on Miura Anjin samurai art page:

 

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100092385756447

 

though Nio dou were by and large uchidashi, some have a very heavy moriage component. But are based off of horizontal plates and stem from okegawa. It is said that multiplates helped prevent urushi from cracking with expanding and contracting. 

 

 

 

Hello !

I do not use Facebook much but it's a really good thing to have more katchushi presence on social medias, I will be following the page. I'm curious if there are any other pages apart from this one and Kouji Kadoya's on Instagram.

Would it be fair to say that Nio Dou is an evolution of Hotoke Dou which is an evolution of Okegawa ? Or would it be too simplistic to say so ? Also, how much weight is added when a Nio Dou is made using moriage ?

[Miura]

13 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Hello !

I do not use Facebook much but it's a really good thing to have more katchushi presence on social medias, I will be following the page. I'm curious if there are any other pages apart from this one and Kouji Kadoya's on Instagram.

Would it be fair to say that Nio Dou is an evolution of Hotoke Dou which is an evolution of Okegawa ? Or would it be too simplistic to say so ? Also, how much weight is added when a Nio Dou is made using moriage ?

Hi,

Honestly I hate social media. The only reason that I emerged back on the scene is because of the terrible mess that was taking place due to some people abusing it.  Anyway Im here.   And its nice to find and network with people like yourself.  Yes, I don't think that there are any questions that the Nio came out of the hotoke and okegawa dou.  I would assume that hotoke and okegawa came about around the same time.  The main difference is the amount of urushi being used.  Hotoke require a lot of urushi etc as you can see from my facebook page.  To give you an example regarding the weight, the hotoke I restored, was probably around 6 kilo pre restoration, I would say it nearly doubled in weight with the urushi, shitaji, and fabrics.  Hotoke if moriage, would require a lot of urushi and shitaji and so it would get pretty heavy.  But it could technically be done if you took your time and knew what you were doing.

[Miura]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:16 PM, Luc T said:

Indeed Andy, there is always a margin of ~20 years (or more).  I use the middle of the timeframe as a quick tool.  But it never is exact.

in this,case, I have to look it up. I use C14, executed by the KIK in Brussels (outstanding reputation)

Well if they are that accurate, I will have to start sending my stuff to them!   So the middle time frame on the armor you referenced was 1575?  +-20 years? or was it more?  and where was the sample taken from?

[Luc T]

C14 needs some interpretation.   The red zone does not match the style and can be excluded.  The same goes for the zone before 1550.

the massive just  before 1600 is most probably,  thus our zone can be limited to those~20 years.

I normally take a chip of flaking urushi.   Kozane can be reused from elder armors.

 

[Miura]

1 hour ago, Luc T said:

C14 needs some interpretation.   The red zone does not match the style and can be excluded.  The same goes for the zone before 1550.

the massive just  before 1600 is most probably,  thus our zone can be limited to those~20 years.

I normally take a chip of flaking urushi.   Kozane can be reused from elder armors.

 

Ok Luc, this is about what I would have expected.  Its a 170 year spread.  Im not going to challenge your assumptions or anything, I just thought that this is what the spread would look like. Generally in archeology, with traditional C14 dating we call a 50 year spread about as good as it gets.  AMS can sometimes do better but in general we have all kinds of problems with stuff from the 1600s onwards.  And if it has been restored sometimes funky data can come up.  I do think that you are in the ballpark with your estimate of age though, this is the reason that I really prefer shrine, or historical documents than C14 from this period.  (usually you would not hear an archeologist say such a thing) Though, the C14 does tell us that it is indeed old and not a fake and from the general period that we thought it was.    Thanks so much for sharing this data with us!

 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

6 hours ago, Miura said:

Hi,

Honestly I hate social media. The only reason that I emerged back on the scene is because of the terrible mess that was taking place due to some people abusing it.  Anyway Im here.   And its nice to find and network with people like yourself.  Yes, I don't think that there are any questions that the Nio came out of the hotoke and okegawa dou.  I would assume that hotoke and okegawa came about around the same time.  The main difference is the amount of urushi being used.  Hotoke require a lot of urushi etc as you can see from my facebook page.  To give you an example regarding the weight, the hotoke I restored, was probably around 6 kilo pre restoration, I would say it nearly doubled in weight with the urushi, shitaji, and fabrics.  Hotoke if moriage, would require a lot of urushi and shitaji and so it would get pretty heavy.  But it could technically be done if you took your time and knew what you were doing.

Agreed about social media, not fond of these but I feel like it's becoming a necessity for artisans and artists to remind people that they're still there.

Regarding hotoke dou, I remember reading that they could also be done by applying a layer of fabric or leather to the bare dou and applying lacquer over it, or is this always the case for hotoke dou ?

Also, it's impressive how much weight gets added with everything that's applied, can't imagine how heavy a nio dou with moriage would get haha

[Miura]

6 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Agreed about social media, not fond of these but I feel like it's becoming a necessity for artisans and artists to remind people that they're still there.

Regarding hotoke dou, I remember reading that they could also be done by applying a layer of fabric or leather to the bare dou and applying lacquer over it, or is this always the case for hotoke dou ?

Also, it's impressive how much weight gets added with everything that's applied, can't imagine how heavy a nio dou with moriage would get haha

You are absolutely right. Actually on the dou i recently restored, i did use fabric in places. It really does help prevent too much stress on thick urushi and helps absorb shock and prevent chipping. It also does add very minimal cushioning when layered.    Leather was used rarely, but performs some of the same roles. In some ways its better than fabric in some ways not. Though both serve the function of making the surface flat and even using less time and resources. A nio dou if moriage would be very heavy. 😂

[FrenchBreadPrime]

5 hours ago, Miura said:

You are absolutely right. Actually on the dou i recently restored, i did use fabric in places. It really does help prevent too much stress on thick urushi and helps absorb shock and prevent chipping. It also does add very minimal cushioning when layered.    Leather was used rarely, but performs some of the same roles. In some ways its better than fabric in some ways not. Though both serve the function of making the surface flat and even using less time and resources. A nio dou if moriage would be very heavy. 😂

Ah, thanks for the information ! I did not know that fabric made it better to prevent urushi chipping.

I guess a moriage nio dou would still sacrifice utility then, at least there are other ways to be stylish on a battlefield !

[Scarabus808]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:44 PM, Arthur G said:

The Mogami-Dou: Part 2

The earliest reference I have ever seen to the Mogami-dou is likely this armor order from the early 1570's. In it, an "Okegaha-dou" is specified.

 

 

All evidence points to the Kin-dou and the Mogami-dou being developments in Eastern Japan, likely around the Kanto Region. However, the concept spread across the country over the next decade or so.

Inaba Yoshimichi's armor is a wonderful example. Made likely in Nara or elsewhere in the Kansai region, we know it was used towards the latter part of the Ishiyama Honganji War in the late 1570's. In it we see an interesting hybrid construction of both plates and kozane.



The example at the Royal Armouries was gifted from Satsuma to a foreign power in the early 1580's if I recall correctly. This means we know the design had made it down to the farthest Southern end of Japan by this time.



However, even by this very late date, we are quite far away from the popular image of Ashigaru all running around all clad in riveted Okegawa Nimai-dou. If this was the highest grade gear for samurai at this time, then clearly there is something very, very wrong with our image of this time.

There are still quite a few more steps to get to that design, and we will see when it likely first showed up on the battlefield afterwards.

It is very cool to see this armor of my distant ancestor, it makes me feel this sense of resonance to see it.  Where did you come by this picture of Ittetsu's armor?

[Arthur G]

Hey there Nick! 

I have a few sources from where I've found photos. I have a lot more than this, but most of them are private. The photo on the left should come up if you reverse image search for it. The one on the right is from one of Sasama Yoshihiko's books.

Are you saying you're distantly related to Inaba Yoshimichi?

Edit: Ah, here we go! The photo came from Suzuki Yusuke's twitter.
 

 

[Scarabus808]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:24 PM, Arthur G said:

Hey there Nick! 

I have a few sources from where I've found photos. I have a lot more than this, but most of them are private. The photo on the left should come up if you reverse image search for it. The one on the right is from one of Sasama Yoshihiko's books.

Are you saying you're distantly related to Inaba Yoshimichi?

Edit: Ah, here we go! The photo came from Suzuki Yusuke's twitter.
 

 

Hello there,

 

Yes, in some way indeed, my Japanese family name is in fact Inaba and my grandfather and his whole family were in an interment camp (Manzanar) during WWII after our side of the family had already immigrated to America and purchased our own farm in Riverside, California--probably because some of the other family lines in Japan at the time were involved with the military aristocracy still.  In that, for some reason my Grandfather either suppressed or himself did not know of this history, but in searching on a deep hunch and much life-long 'intuitive' feeling, I have uncovered much about my ancestral line in Japan by feeling frustrated in the lack of family history I was given before our living in America and deciding to dig.  Though I feel the old man may have known something based on his proclivities and the way he held himself, can't know for sure now, unfortunately, but my soul says yes indeed.  Thank you for the reply!  I will look up those names and see what I can find as resources myself.  Seeing that particular helmet and cuirass makes me feel like a dog picking up a scent its been tracking--so-to-speak.

 

Thanks again!

 

[Arthur G]

19 hours ago, Scarabus808 said:

Hello there,

 

Yes, in some way indeed, my Japanese family name is in fact Inaba and my grandfather and his whole family were in an interment camp (Manzanar) during WWII after our side of the family had already immigrated to America and purchased our own farm in Riverside, California--probably because some of the other family lines in Japan at the time were involved with the military aristocracy still.  In that, for some reason my Grandfather either suppressed or himself did not know of this history, but in searching on a deep hunch and much life-long 'intuitive' feeling, I have uncovered much about my ancestral line in Japan by feeling frustrated in the lack of family history I was given before our living in America and deciding to dig.  Though I feel the old man may have known something based on his proclivities and the way he held himself, can't know for sure now, unfortunately, but my soul says yes indeed.  Thank you for the reply!  I will look up those names and see what I can find as resources myself.  Seeing that particular helmet and cuirass makes me feel like a dog picking up a scent its been tracking--so-to-speak.

 

Thanks again!

 

I sent you a private message just now Nick. Hopefully I can help with your research!

[Arthur G]

Sorry for the long pause on here! Been involved on many other projects, so I put the "zunari" thread on hiatus. I also wanted to do some more research on a few things before proceeding with it.

In the meantime though, I wanted to discuss a new proposed origin of the Mogami-dou's development. After some discussions with Luca (Gunsen History) on the evolution of plate based dou in the East, I started to think more and more that the Mogami-dou did not originate in the East.

So then, if not in the East, then where? The best candidate is undoubtedly Yamato province, in and around Nara. What would this evolution have looked like though? Was it a straight jump from earlier kana-dou to full plate, or something more gradual?

When looking at Inaba Yoshimichi's armor originally, I had interpreted it as a Mogami-dou using kozane for the sides, kusazuri, etc. However, let's take the opposite approach for a moment; what if this is instead a kozane-dou that replaces the most important sections with plate? When looking at the trends with mixing metal kozane with leather, we can see which areas were deemed most important. This armor seems to roughly follow the same logic with plate location as the older thinking with metal kozane usage.



Assuming for a moment that this is in essence the earliest form of the "mogami-dou" transition, then it would follow a logical process of evolution from this point. Next stage is completely replacing the kozane in the nagagawa with plate; following this, we would start seeing kusazuri and sode gradually becoming plate based as well, such as in this example from Oyamazumi-jinja:

[Arthur G]

I think another important armor to discuss here is an example from Shimoichi, Nara prefecture and belonged to the Hirohashi family. This is one of the oldest mogami-dou I have found, likely the earliest with full plates used for the kusazuri and sode I am aware of.

The helmet is signed Neo Masanobu (根尾正信) interestingly, and is one of the transitional "Akoda" types I have been researching lately.

Sadly, photographs of this armor are scarce, and the quality quite poor. We see a mix of Sugake and Kebiki odoshi, with the lower lames such as the nagagawa being sugake.

I will include links here to where these photos were obtained, which contain more information than I'm including here for anyone that would like to dig more!



https://www.town.shi...g.jp/0000000027.html



 

So, I'd be curious to hear thoughts on this being a possible origin for the mogami-dou, both in terms of technological evolution as well as location of origin. 

In essence, my proposition is one of a multi-staged process to get to the full plate mogami-dou, rather than an overnight transition from the kana-dou.

[chris covington]

Well… that makes a lot of sense! 

[Iekatsu]

Hello Arthur,

 

I think you are on the right track now, Nara and the surrounding area was well known for armour production in this period and with its central location in the trade networks the reach of the styles influence makes more sense.

[Shogun8]

Arthur and Thomas,

 

I too, have been wondering lately about the true origins of the mogamidô. primarily because so many known examples seem to be worn with Western kabuto, including the one with the ko-zunari in Arthur's Feb. 19th post, the famous one in Leeds and several others with ko-toppai.

[Arthur G]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:19 AM, Shogun8 said:

Arthur and Thomas,

 

I too, have been wondering lately about the true origins of the mogamidô. primarily because so many known examples seem to be worn with Western kabuto, including the one with the ko-zunari in Arthur's Feb. 19th post, the famous one in Leeds and several others with ko-toppai.

At this point, I can't really see any good reason to ascribe their inception in Eastern Japan. The name "mogami" is a much later attribution, with even an armor order from the Takeda in the early 1570's referring to them as Okegaha-dou.

And when we see Eastern styles of dou show up, they immediately go their own direction with it, rivetting the plates together ala Kanto Go-mai, or combining into one large plate as in the Yukinoshita-dou. We also don't see much evidence of Eastern armor production before these show up outside of a few extant kabuto. Yet there is a wealth of Mogami-dou from Western Japan and the Kansai in particular.

One of the things I've tried to illustrate with these forum posts is the dangers of using modern terminology that has developed over the last few centuries when trying to study Pre-Edo armor; I think the conundrum here is associating the name Mogami with Mogami Yoshiaki, but like I said, I don't think we actually see this name associated with this type of dou in this era. Further, mogami might also just mean "best", as in the literal meaning of the word.

Just food for thought.