GN174

https://www.jauce.com/auction/c1104849331 So what about this, it is perfect without signs of age, but I am still not fully decided, thoughts welcome

few links to one seller with a number of new items looks like a lot of work went into them and so not without a value https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1095849776 https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1095845877 https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1095853878 https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1095834547 https://www.jauce.com/auction/n1095836776

I would agree outside of Japan, there is a seller on Juace who regularly posts Kawari Kabuto. I will post the next one when it comes up, they are from the images very good looking (too good) and do attract bids. The person making them clearly has a skill set and its a shame they are passing them off a earlier pieces to attract higher prices. They have talent they would probably still get sales if they marketed honestly

Arthur you might find this link and download of interest if you have not already seen it, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271379447_Neutron_diffraction_characterization_of_Japanese_armour_components

Its your forum Brian so you don't have to stick to free speak principles. It just seems to be a trolling thread with little value, as same agenda's are being pushed again and again in this and new threads of a similar vein, and Brian I am sorry for your stress as your forum is a great resource but unfortunately as you correctly in saying people are clearly running person vendetta's in public via these threads. Maybe some growing up in in order for some people posting, as I think the katchu thread undermines the value of your whole forum, which is a great shame. The internet is a wonderful thing where people seem to think that normal human etiquette and behaviour does not apply and seems to bring out the very worse in some people. I am going to stick to reading the sword threads and avoid the armour threads which given the current trend are seriously lacking a level of maturity. I like to see people having positive discussions about armour and swords, as it is a hobby for 99% of the people, and I love shared knowledge and centres for pooled knowledge. However, you dress it up this is not positive sharing of knowledge, its teenage trolling. I am fortunately enough to be able to connect to real people in the real world with great knowledge on swords and armour and who are happy to share their knowledge in a mature and constructive way, and to those people I am deeply greatly. So will stick to that as that is time well spent.

how do you know the first seller hadn't already swapped out the sangu - I don't know how you would know, please share this knowledge, Did the other seller sell it with the maedate in your first picture?, dealers in Japan do swap parts around and break up sets for profit, while I don't like to see that it does happen, The hair looks like it is pushed into the tehen (removable plume) in my opinion. Sangu set is matching, gusoku I understand means matched rather than made to match as you have stated, The kabuto, mempo, sode and dou are all matched, as are the kote, hiadate and suneate - which is a matched armour

assume you mean Iron and looks like it was oiled rather than polished if we are seeking to be correct

If someone replaces a Sangu set with one is the same style but probably better condition I would not be bothered as a buyer. I have plenty of Sangu sets where the silk is destroyed by age and these are very hard to display. I think people forget that they used to replace parts of their armour at the time (edo) and unlikely the original samurai owner would walk around in an old torn sangu set. If the piece is correct then to be a purest to the point of a Sangu or a meadate (which they original owners often disposed off before battle themselves) to me seems like overkill for the sake of overkill. Restoration in all antiques is very common place. The sword guys have their blades polished and fitting restored if needed, and so why is armour any different. You can display or really enjoy an box of bits? it might be your preference but to say serious collectors don't have items restored would be complete nonsense. Seem a very naive position you are taking. How do you know the Sangu in the first picture was original set? Very keen to understand how you know.

The guy in Japan that produces the amazing fake JIngasa often seen in Juace he is so good I am afraid to buy any. I don't think we should limit to Europe if we are on subject as I am sure there are plenty coming out of Japan and other parts of the world.

Chris Covington looking at the original condition it looks like you saved that piece for history. I do still stand by my original point of view that these threads (Chris excluded) seem to serve limited positive outcomes for the study of Japanese armour. Unless people are enjoying the show to much could it be closed out and more study worthy topics promoted. Brian is you dread waking up to post on this topic I assume easy for you to close under the TOXIC banner.

I would say this seems slightly different from the use of the word "katana" as it is specific rather than a generic word like "dou". As such the owner of the trade mark and IP are just that the lawful owners until such time a court says otherwise, that is why the system exists, and so to discredit the system is wrong. I would much rather see the Katchu thread on this board return to discussion on Japanese armour as intended and if individuals have issue such as these they should solve these themselves in private as I see no public service here. People do fall out and have disagreements that's life but is this the right place for that, I hope not. It does make the world of collecting Japanese armour seem like a toxic place and so if it were me (which it is not) I would close the thread and try to move onto positive things as too much negativity drives enthusiasts and collector away.

very nice armour

Well done for seeing it through to the end, and as you will have found it is a learning process with trail and error that will take time to master, perseverance is therefore key, which is a trait you seem to have. Keep at it

I would be grateful for any assistance

Try Jon Bluming Jr

I have the hard copy book of the Ott collection sale, some very nice pieces there. I think the Berlin Samurai museum picked up a few pieces from that auction. Yes the Dr Mene armour was not quite the same when it resurfaced.

Uwe, I am correct in saying that these armours were on the field or thought to have been on the field at Sekigahara. Best Graham

With the world of the internet then the majority of items going to auction in whatever collectable market will have been seen before and markets for everything are faster moving these days as is society. The days of the collection never seen for last 100 years will be few and far between, There are the odd things like an armour came up for auction in Paris recently that was published in Ancienne collection du Dr. Mène, Vente Charpentier et Lair-Dubreuil, Hôtel Drouot, 21 avril 1913, n°6 et reproduite au catalogue. That hadn't to my knowledge been seen in for a long time. Ultimately there are only so many fine examples of everything and so things tend to resurface and change hands. Part of the reason why collectors join forums and society's is to obviously discuss with like minded people but also to educate themselves to become an educated buyer, we all like to think that our knowledge scored us a deal or helped us to avoid a mistake or two. Buyers at the big auction houses are not always collectors in the space they just like the look of something or want to own a Warhol or a Japanese sword as so for them price sensitivity will not be the key factor. Michael I wouldn't know if those armours are direct from Japan, you must assume some pieces are direct from Japan as to which I don't know. There are a lot of papered armours in Europe.

There are some wonderful items and the number of items allow for good comparisons of different smiths and styles across kabuto, mask and armours. The Wakisaka nimai-do gusoku is very interesting (the last photo above with the two interlocking circles) I understand there were 19 of these armours of which 7-8 are known, others here might be able to provide more detail. As you rightly say there are a couple of fine Juyo papered armours and a number of fine unpapered armours. The range and quality of wood carved maedate on a number of kabuto's (lots 6,8,10 & 11) is quite high and armours 46 and 52 also have excellent examples. These are harder and harder to find, the same with the flags as these tend to disintegrate over time, and so great to see them on armour. For me the metal work on the sode and dou of 49 is something I want to look at more closely only as I nearly bought it a while ago unseen for the dou, so I might end up lamenting that decision. Lot 70 is an interesting mask with hinged ears which i haven't seen before so special. I personally like variegated lacing and honkozane and so lots 46,47, and 53 appeal to me if money was no object. Lots of items - I am also planning a trip up to view.

thank you all, ,live and learn

Posted in wrong section before

thank you

Will do thank you

I hope so would like to know just out of curiosity

Its ok what period - modern?