matching fittings in history

[rematron]

Hello NMB,

 

At any point in history was it taboo for sword fittings to not match in theme?  For example, the menuki being lions and the fuchi & kashira being dragons?  Or has it aways been a matter of continuity being more pleasing subjectively? 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Jeremy,

there was no rule for that except for a short period of time when you had to appear at the SHOGUN's court in EDO JIDAI, as far as I know.

[rematron]

Thank you Jean.

[Soshin]

3 hours ago, rematron said:

Hello NMB,

 

At any point in history was it taboo for sword fittings to not match in theme?  For example, the menuki being lions and the fuchi & kashira being dragons?  Or has it aways been a matter of continuity being more pleasing subjectively? 

 

 

 

Hello Jeremy,

 

As others have stated it was a subjective matter and the intermix of different but related themes were commonly decided by the sword owner and his budget except for the high-ranking direct retainers of the Tokugawa during the Edo Period that would be required to perform official duties while in the Shogun's court. The Goto as well as other Kinko Schools were known for producing sword fittings such as menuki for wear within the Shogun's court. I hope you find this helpful.     

[rematron]

Thank you David.

[OceanoNox]

I asked this question to the Instagram curator of Arms & Armor of the MET. They told me that it was fairly common to have a common theme on all the fittings.

I seem to remember someone saying that all fittings having the exact same theme was not fashionable/not educated, but I do not remember who and I certainly do not know the validity of the comment.

For what it's worth, I think that most gendaito are made with matching fittings (mine is a grape/vine in nunome zogan).

[rematron]

25 minutes ago, OceanoNox said:

I seem to remember someone saying that all fittings having the exact same theme was not fashionable/not educated, but I do not remember who and I certainly do not know the validity of the comment.

Thank you OceanoNox. That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m wondering about. I don’t want to speculate but I’m very curious about the attitude towards them. If anyone knows of some specific reading I could do I would be very grateful.🦝

[Soshin]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:56 PM, rematron said:

Thank you OceanoNox. That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m wondering about. I don’t want to speculate but I’m very curious about the attitude towards them. If anyone knows of some specific reading I could do I would be very grateful.🦝

 

I think that might have been a comment made to me on NMB about a fine set of menuki (tadpole shaped) I had about ten or so years ago. I think Ford might have made the comment but don't quote me on it as it was such a long while ago. I still think this idea that all fittings of the sword having the exact same "cookie cutter" motif or design in very much a modern invention. It's not at all surprising that a Gendaito was mounted with fittings that have the exact same motif. Different fittings for a sword mount while not having the same exact motif or design might have different motifs or designs that share some common relation or connection to a larger theme, idea, or even a story. Also, sometime two different motifs are intermixed for a common theme. An example of this is that of dragons and tigers. This is just one example there are many more found in Japanese art. 

[rematron]

5 minutes ago, Soshin said:

 

Different fittings for a sword mount while not having the same exact motif or design might have different motifs or designs that share some common relation or connection to a larger theme, idea, or even a story. Also, sometime two different motifs are intermixed for a common theme. An example of this is that of dragons and tigers. This is just one example there are many more found in Japanese art. 

Thank you, David.  Indeed, there could be certain myths being conveyed by the incorporation of different pieces.  I have purchased a copy of 'Legend in Japanese Art' by Henri L. Joly to help me with this study.

[Brian]

David is 100% correct.
I also remember reading that, and that the obsession with matching fittings throughout is historically inaccurate in most cases.
F/K should match, menuki seldom do except at the high levels.

[Franco D]

For anyone that is truly interested in the study of koshirae I recommend Markus Sesko's Koshirae Taikan. 

 

7 hours ago, Soshin said:

I still think this idea that all fittings of the sword having the exact same "cookie cutter" motif or design in very much a modern invention.

 

Please define modern? 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Regards, 

[OceanoNox]

13 hours ago, Soshin said:

 

I think Ford might have made the comment but don't quote me on it as it was such a long while ago.

You might be right, I think it was exactly that (I do not remember the initial topic, but it might have been a comment by Ford Hallam).

 

13 hours ago, Soshin said:

Different fittings for a sword mount while not having the same exact motif or design might have different motifs or designs that share some common relation or connection to a larger theme, idea, or even a story.

This actually leads me to a follow up question: In the case of fittings with different "pictures" (whether they make up a story or match a topic but with different images), would they be made in the same style?

[1kinko]

Ishiguro hawk and Murikami dragonfly sets are exceptions then?

[Brian]

There are always exceptions, there can be no hard and fast rules.

[Soshin]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:55 AM, 1kinko said:

Ishiguro hawk and Murikami dragonfly sets are exceptions then?

 

On 12/10/2022 at 11:31 AM, Brian said:

There are always exceptions, there can be no hard and fast rules.

 

Brian response summarizes it nicely and is always good to remember when trying to understand topics like these. There were no fixed rules for the fittings used for the Japanese sword in everyday use outside of specific contexts such as the Shogun's court or while performing other important official duties. An informative book I would recommend is The Art Appreciation of Japanese Sword Fittings by Shigeo Fukushi.      

[rematron]

Agreed there are no fixed rules and that is definitely good to remember but in every society there are fashion and social norms ie: brides wearing white and not wearing sweatpants when you go to a government office but rules are made to be broken (except when you’re visiting the Shogun) but there are still taboos and norms in attire.  And these norms definitely change over time. This may be a subject that hasn’t been heavily documented but I’m sure there were expressions of individuality that either conformed or went against the grain or had a stigma attached to them.  But it seems to me that it has come to the point of speculation in this thread and so my question cannot easily be answered without more research and perhaps it never will be. And that’s fine. I will add ‘the art appreciation of sword fittings’ to my quickly growing collection of Nihonto books. Thank you gentlemen. 

[Toryu2020]

Jeremy et al

The rules are well understood though maybe not well documented in English. Banzashi, what you wore in official duty was set by the Shogunate, even so there was lots of flexibility in how you met those rules. (within certain constraints) The length of Daito was proscribed so we see lots of 2.3.5 Shaku swords. Red Saya were reserved for certain groups - white tsukaito was reserved for certain groups. Hizen retainers were encouraged to copy the Kassen koshirae worn by their lord in every detail excepting the menuki which could NOT be catfish like that of Sansai. Satsuma swordsmen made a point to sport swords longer that the proscribed length and garish red Saya in direct contravention of the rules.

 

There are concrete examples, it is not all speculation. What you wore to work was prescribed what you wore on your own time could be just about anything you wanted albeit operating in a highly fashion conscious and strictly stratified society...

 

-t

[rematron]

16 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Jeremy et al

The rules are well understood though maybe not well documented in English. Banzashi, what you wore in official duty was set by the Shogunate, even so there was lots of flexibility in how you met those rules. (within certain constraints) The length of Daito was proscribed so we see lots of 2.3.5 Shaku swords. Red Saya were reserved for certain groups - white tsukaito was reserved for certain groups. Hizen retainers were encouraged to copy the Kassen koshirae worn by their lord in every detail excepting the menuki which could NOT be catfish like that of Sansai. Satsuma swordsmen made a point to sport swords longer that the proscribed length and garish red Saya in direct contravention of the rules.

 

There are concrete examples, it is not all speculation. What you wore to work was prescribed what you wore on your own time could be just about anything you wanted albeit operating in a highly fashion conscious and strictly stratified society...

 

-t

Thank you, Thomas.  I enjoyed learning about these specific examples.  Research into this would definitely be easier if I could read kanji. 

[b.hennick]

There are sword koshirae where all the mounts were made by the same person. Isaku is the term meaning made by one smith. 

[1kinko]

While The Art Appreciation of Japanese Sword Fittings is a wealth of good quality images arranged by subject I don’t see it contributing to the issue of matching or non- matching sets, nor do I think the “always exceptions” is particularly helpful. However, Markus Sesko’s 2014/10/11 post “Historic Overview of Aesthetic Requirements for a Tsuba- Part II” explains the cultural/economic changes that occurred before, during, and after the Sengoku era and the influence of the tea ceremony and zen thought on artistic appreciation. He also tracks wabi sabi and machibori vs iebori clientele.

[rematron]

47 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

While The Art Appreciation of Japanese Sword Fittings is a wealth of good quality images arranged by subject I don’t see it contributing to the issue of matching or non- matching sets, nor do I think the “always exceptions” is particularly helpful. However, Markus Sesko’s 2014/10/11 post “Historic Overview of Aesthetic Requirements for a Tsuba- Part II” explains the cultural/economic changes that occurred before, during, and after the Sengoku era and the influence of the tea ceremony and zen thought on artistic appreciation. He also tracks wabi sabi and machibori vs iebori clientele.

Thank you for taking this back to the original question, Darrel and thank you for pointing out that article!  I'll check it out!