How important is Machi okuri

[Caracal]

Hi

 

How important is Machi okuri for the value of a sword and the originality of the sword.

 

Its a NBTHK cerificate Hozon Katana, Kanei jidai 1624 - 1644.

 

Robert

[Geraint]

Dear Robert.

 

As with all questions in this pursuit there are many answers.  Machi okuri can be anything between a few millimetres, which most wouldn't even notice to quite a lot, which would be more obvious.  Machi okuri suggests that the end of the nakago is unaltered so you should have the full nakago and mei of the smith.  In this case I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I liked the sword or the smiths work.  Once the nakago becomes suriage then purists will start to get picky.  This was recently justified on the basis that there are so many Shinto swords out there why not wait for a completely unmodified example?  Personally I love this view point, it means that I can get a chance at some really good swords that fail this test and are consequently more affordable.  If it is a sword by a prolific mid range smith then some people will want to hang out for ubu and might be bothered by machi okuri, I suspect that there are quite a lot of us who wouldn't let it bother us very much.

 

I wait for the true collectors to tell me how wrong I am.

 

All the best.

[Hoshi]

For Shinto, blades which are Machi-Okuri cannot pass Juyo (there are certainly some exceedingly rare exceptions to the rule, though). 

 

Expect a big chunk of the price being deducted for such a blade. So if it screams "good deal" the Machi-Okuri, however small, is certainly to credit. While I'm sure it wouldn't bother most of us overly, it is however a substantial issue in terms of collectibility for Shinto collectors in Japan. Pristine condition is so important for later periods. It's the first priority. Unadulterated shape. Original Nakago, crisp and legible signature, good patina, these all play a preponderant role in Shinto which certainly eludes most of us and our collecting instincts.

 

The wholesomeness of the form expressed through the pure intention of the smith is paramount in Shinto. 

 

Another way to put it is, where the beginner western Shinto collector sees "cheap" the old, hardened Japanese collector sees "ruined". 

 

At the end of the day, if its a major smith, and it's machi-okuri, then it's certainly a chance to get a major "discount" and hopefully sell close to the purchase price in the west because it screams bargain and some other western collector will want it, not understanding the gravity that Machi Okuri represents in Japan in terms of collectibility. One just needs to understand what you're getting into. It's treacherous territory. If it's not a major smith, and its Shinto Machi-Okuri, and more than a few hundred bucks I would run away. Keep your money to fight another day. 

 

As to why this is? I have a few ideas: 

 

It could be that because Shinto work lacks the luster of old koto masterworks, or its intense hataraki, that one needs to look and appreciate other parts of it, such as a fine cursive signature, and revel at the sight of rare type which flows effortlessly on the Nakago.  It could also be that there is a natural filter. Collectors who don't mind dinged and beaten pieces will live just happily with Koto works. Those that require emergency aneurysm surgery in response to a mm thin kitae ware on the Shinogi of a great koto masterwork will find refuge in the perfection of Shinto. And finally there are so many shinto blades floating about that one needs a simple algorithm to sort them into the desirability ladder. Wholeness of the form is a simple criteria which filters what goes, and what falls off the ladder. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

2 hours ago, Caracal said:

How important is Machi okuri for the value of a sword and the originality of the sword.

 

The real question is how much a suriage blade bothers you.

[Brian]

To answer your specific question: Value wise, if it is a high end name then it is greatly affected.
If just an average smith for an average collector then likely not a huge amount.
It all depends on what the target market is.
 

[Caracal]

 

The smith's name is Oushu Ju Masanaga (1: a generationen) Kanei era 1644 – 1644, Provins Iwashiro-

 

Robert

[Jacques]

 

I think it's that sword : 

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as20143-刀：奥州□政長初代-katana-oushu-ju-masanaga-1st-generation

 

 

It's only machi-okuri and not suriage so the value should be close to an ubu one for a smith of this level

[Babu]

If a blade has gone through many polishes it loses its ha machi I would guess so machi okuri would at some point be a necessity.... or are my assumptions wildly off? 

Polishing is a matter of necessity in most cases so are we also to assume that a sword with machi okuri has been well used in battle or perhaps abused? 

[chi fan wong]

hello,

 

sorry if this hijacks the thread to a different direction.

 

in looking at the picture of the nakago of that masanaga it seems like 3 or 4 words above masanaga was removed from the whole mei.  and yasurime was applied over those removed mei.  

 

- does it seem like it was done intentionally?  if so could anyone speculate as to why?

- could it simply have rusted away or rubbed away in time?  if so was it the norm to apply yasurime over it?

 

just curious.

 

[Tom Darling]

Chi Fan,

 

Simple,  you really don't know, which Masanaga it is,  even with papers!

 

Tom D.

[Jacques]

According NBTHK origami, it's the first generation Masanaga => Oshu Ju Masanaga 奥州住政長