Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi update

[Hokke]

2 minutes ago, Hector said:

That has, unfortunately, become path of the course for collecting in this field nowadays.

However, what prompted me to resurrect this thread was the fact that one of these things is sitting (possibly for sale) on the website of the West's most respected authority on Japanese tsuba.
Although the great man himself has passed, many people, including myself, still go to that site to see and learn about all the different schools of tsuba - and so it's very disheartening if it's been compromised by displaying a forgery.

Yep, kinda went off on a tangent.....my bad

 

But you are right, this never should have made it onto his page.......only proves how pernicious this problem is. 

[Kiko]

But gentlemen, could someone clarify whether Mr. Haynes is still among the living? I’m starting to find this virtual funeral rather awkward!
Grev seemed to imply yesterday that he had spoken to him not so long ago, and a well-informed acquaintance also insisted a few months back—around the time of the Czerny's sale—that he was very much alive.
That doesn't exactly square with a funeral in 2023, does it?

[Hector]

1 hour ago, Kiko said:

But gentlemen, could someone clarify whether Mr. Haynes is still among the living? I’m starting to find this virtual funeral rather awkward!
Grev seemed to imply yesterday that he had spoken to him not so long ago, and a well-informed acquaintance also insisted a few months back—around the time of the Czerny's sale—that he was very much alive.
That doesn't exactly square with a funeral in 2023, does it?

From the VARSHAVSKY COLLECTION website. 
They usually know what's what.

[Spartancrest]

This design is popular - even if it is a cast piece. The fact that the same piece can be listed by several dealers just speaks to the fact that eBay and other sites allow "proxy" sellers - none of them own the piece but they know the buy it now price [BIN] from the original seller. They add their "commission" and simply redirect the delivery when they get a sale. The proxy dealer never even has the piece in hand. 

 

As for the late Robert Haynes and Shibuiswords - let us not forget they are/were dealers and in the business of making a profit. No one knows everything and those people we prop up on pedestals often have feet of clay and are just as likely to make mistakes as any one of us.

 

Perhaps someone should inform these sellers that the original box that the casting was sold in is actually now worth more than the contents - the cardboard box is certainly far rarer!    Cast-iron tourist product from Iwate prefecture Nambu Tekki (南部鉄器). 

名産　Famous (well known)

鐡器　Iron Goods / Iron utensil

謹製　Well-made

[Kiko]

And the word hakogaki took on a whole new dimension!
 

As for Mr. Haynes, my initial inclination was to trust the human accounts, even indirect ones, especially after the discovery of a possible confusion of homonyms; however, I reluctantly defer to the apparent consensus.

[Spartancrest]

Going back to this : https://chano-yu.com/antique-myochin-tsuba-iron-samurai-sword-guard-5069/  The bottom end of these guards are usually where the casting evidence shows up the most, there is clear evidence of a grinder being used to clean up that edge - perhaps where the mold/mould was filled from? 

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

I took the liberty of e mailing Elliott at Shibui Swords and here is a part of the reply. "Robert and I under very good lighting and magnification and with this piece in hand, have confirmed that this piece is forged and of very high quality."

 

Just thought you would like to know.

 

All the best.

[Dan tsuba]

Geraint, well done!

But according to the picture shown below, I may have my doubts about that.

 

 

 

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Geraint said:

Dear All.

 

I took the liberty of e mailing Elliott at Shibui Swords and here is a part of the reply. "Robert and I under very good lighting and magnification and with this piece in hand, have confirmed that this piece is forged and of very high quality."

 

Just thought you would like to know.

 

All the best.

Ok, so if you quoted him accurately, he is representing he has the original. Im curious, when you reached out to him, did you simply ask about his tsuba, or did you mention this thread and the number of referenced copies contained within it? 

Lastly, did he mention whether or not its for sale since his site lists both possibilities?

[Lou V]

I mentioned that I didn't believe the tsuba was forged when they first posted it on the website and got a similar response.

 

As for is it for sale.  For the right amount of money most anything is for sale.  

 

I'm more hung up on the fact that Bob has passed according to these websites.  Elliott said that Bob was still collecting in a correspondence I had with him in October of 2025 so baffled that Bob passed away in 2023.

[Hokke]

So we have a tsuba that is both listed AND not listed for sale, the authenticity of it being both confirmed AND questioned, in the possession of someone affiliated with an individual who may OR may not be alive? 

 

[MauroP]

I know for sure that tsuba belonged to professor Schrödinger (or to his cat)...

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Geraint said:

"Robert and I under very good lighting and magnification and with this piece in hand, have confirmed that this piece is forged and of very high quality."

Sorry but they are in need of some new glasses - regardless of their scrutiny I would advise all members of this forum to avoid purchasing the thing if it ever does jump to the "for sale" side of their business.

What would be an appropriate price for one of these things anyway? In the Art world fakes or forgeries are literally worth nothing and are generally destroyed but what is a metal paperweight worth these days when no one uses paperweights?

 

They may need to do the ultimate test - drop the darn thing onto a concrete floor - I bet it won't bounce [or be in one piece after the test!]

Going back to Posted November 21, 2020      From the evidence these things have failed the test more than once! 

 This design is one TOSA worth tossing away!

Edited Thursday at 12:13 AM by Spartancrest
More images

[Hector]

On the left is Shibui Sword's offering.

On the right is Grev's cast copy as analysed by Dale (Page 1 of this thread).

 

I think Elliott Long needs to get his Ouija board out again and run it by Mr. Haynes one more time.

Edited Thursday at 12:37 AM by Hector

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

......regardless of their scrutiny I would advise all members of this forum to avoid purchasing the thing if it ever does jump to the "for sale" side of their business.

 

Im afraid the implications are far more serious if a site and its operators wish to maintain a respected or trusted status for ANY of their items. 

 

Luckily this is something VERY easy to remedy. Additional pictures and an appropriate explanation for the likeness to the numerous copies posted would go a long way to demonstrate both competence and honesty. 

 

As for the question of Mr Haynes status......someone here either has to know or knows someone who must know.......I cant imagine that if he passed it would not have been big news in the "community". 

[Spartancrest]

One other item to point out is the total lack of any seppa "shadow" on any of these. Indeed the seppa-dai all appear "lumpy" and granular.

As a casting they are superb examples of the genre and I won't give away my 25 cent version as it still represents a side of tsuba collecting still worthy of study. JUST DON'T PAY HUGE SUMS!

[I truly wish I could find some original advertised cost for when these were first sold - a rough date would be a great help as well]

[Hector]

1 hour ago, Hokke said:

As for the question of Mr Haynes status......someone here either has to know or knows someone who must know.......I cant imagine that if he passed it would not have been big news in the "community". 

Apparently he's fine - Mitch McConnell spoke to him for 20 minutes yesterday.

[Hokke]

29 minutes ago, Hector said:

Apparently he's fine - Mitch McConnell spoke to him for 20 minutes yesterday.

Im sure we'll get a picture of them in about......36 days

[Spartancrest]

This one has gone through the auction site several times - perhaps the message has got out? https://www.jauce.com/auction/u1198645561  12,000 yen is beyond what it is worth.

[Kiko]

To think I wondered for two minutes if Mitch was a member of the NMB...
 

As is often the case, Dale’s inexhaustible supply of images settles the matter.
However, I must admit that this cast-iron jigsaw puzzle opens up possibilities for use as a bunchin (calligraphy weight) for neo-samurai shodō enthusiasts!

[eternal_newbie]

15 minutes ago, Kiko said:

However, I must admit that this cast-iron jigsaw puzzle opens up possibilities for use as a bunchin (calligraphy weight) for neo-samurai shodō enthusiasts!

 

I had someone gift me a cast-iron tsuba they picked up at a flea market, and it did in fact make quite a handy (and conversation-starting) paperweight at my office.

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

For the sake of completeness I did mention the thread here in my message to Elliott and specifically drew attention to the image posted above.  Here is the reply in full.

 

"I appreciate your comments but be assured that Robert and I have thoroughly studied this piece and can confirm its legitimacy.

One should never make a judgement based on what they think they can see from photographs. They are usually proved wrong. Robert and I under very good lighting and magnification and with this piece in hand, have confirmed that this piece is forged and of very high quality.

We are fine with the opinions of other collectors. That is what makes this study so interesting.

Thank you for your concerns.

 

Best regards,"

 

All the best.

[eternal_newbie]

16 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Here is the reply in full.

 

Perhaps theirs is the original that the others were duplicated from?

[Hector]

It's interesting that Elliott still talks of Robert Haynes in the present tense: 'have', 'can', 'are'. 
 

OK, so what I'm taking away from all this is that only Shibui Swords' tsuba is genuine and that Robert Haynes is still with us and passing judgement on tsuba.

 

Am I singing from the same hymn sheet as everyone else now or am I still missing something?

[Hector]

21 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Going back to this : https://chano-yu.com/antique-myochin-tsuba-iron-samurai-sword-guard-5069/  The bottom end of these guards are usually where the casting evidence shows up the most, there is clear evidence of a grinder being used to clean up that edge - perhaps where the mold/mould was filled from? 

OK, so that's what I'll watch out for if I ever see one of these. 🤔

[Spartancrest]

On 4/8/2025 at 3:24 AM, Exclus1ve said:

It's an old but interesting topic. In Moscow, this quality of tsuba is being sold only now by 3 sellers. More than $1,000 for each one. I believe that they were produced at the end of the 20th century - the beginning of the 21st. I compared them thoroughly, the differences in relief are minimal. Obviously, they were manually modified after casting to make them different from each other. The sellers claim that these are copies of the 19th century. Who is closer to the truth? 

Way back to this type of "repro" 

Unique Japan https://uniquejapan.com/  had this sword and possibly the original guard? It has an added fukurin and distinctly different tagane-ato - - so it is possible?

[Exclus1ve]

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

Unique Japan https://uniquejapan.com/  had this sword and possibly the original guard?

 

More often than not, people are interested in the sword itself rather than the fittings. Dealers understand this. There's a fake security guard there.

Edited Friday at 05:24 AM by Exclus1ve