Kishu ju

[kissakai]

Hi

I think this mei is Kishu ju Mitsumasa but would like confirmation

If it is I can't find him in my books also this is a school I know little about

Any help appreciated

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Grev,

 

Looks like Hishu to me so either Hizen or Higo - I'd guess Hizen as it doesn't look like Higo, but you'd know better.

[kissakai]

Hi John

Thanks for the pointer

I wonder if it is Inshu ju Mitsumasa

I found this on the NMB

I *think* "hishu ju" means "of a Hi- province" or something like that. Similar to "Bishu ju" meaning from Bingo, Bizen, etc., Hishu should mean from Hizen, Higo, or Hida.

Ah, now it's making more sense. I think we're talking about exactly the same thing, just in different terms. I don't think hishu (or bishu, or soshu, etc) is an actual province per se, but refers to a collection of provinces. I focused in on the "hishu" provinces of Hizen and Higo, as they use the same kanji as the one in the mei, whereas Hida uses a different kanji.

 

Do you think the arrow is pointing to the correct kanji?

 

 

 

Grev

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Grev,

 

Sorry but I don't: the kanji that I can see is made of two radicals: that for moon (tsuki, getsu) on the left a comma (tomoe) on the right, so giving the "Hi" in Hishu. If you look at the part of the kanji on the right it clearly has a tail that curls around and under unlike that in Ishu. I'm sorry I know I'm not explaining this well and I can't copy the kanji over as I'm not on my normal computer and I can't find the function in this browser.

 

Unhelpfully, "Hishu" is an alternative way of writing both Hizen and Higo provinces and refers to one of them rather than a particular region. Hida uses a different kanji than Hizen or Higo. 

 

As regards work style I'd be looking at Hizen as it doesn't look Higo style to me. Is it possible that this Mitsumasa isn't listed in Haynes?

[kissakai]

Yes it is quite possible it is not in Haynes especially as this may be quite a bit later than I originally thought

I agree that Hizen is the better option

[george trotter]

This might help? A couple of references to "Hi" and "I" provinces for 3 Mitsumasas, including one coming up to Showa era.

From "Toso Kinko Jiten" p.170 by Wakayama.

Regards,

[kissakai]

HI George

Thanks

I can make a little of it out but don't read Japanese

 

 

Grev

[george trotter]

Sorry Grev,

I thought you used Japanese sources etc.

I am not familiar with koshirae terms etc, not being a student of them, but I can tell you roughly, starting with right column Mitsumasa:

 

Mitsumasa: Yoshu (the 'Yo' is only the left portion of the kanji) Matsuyama ju, Mitsumasa. Lived Iyo kuni (again the yo is only the left portion), Worked mid-Edo. This is today Ehime ken.

 

Next Mitsumasa: Name Takei?. Kumadani? Yoshiyuki? school. Gives several examples of his mei, but none given have the kanji for 'Hi' or 'I'. His true 'masa' is the more complicated masa. Lived Higo kuni in Kumamoto. Worked late Edo.

 

Next Mitsumasa: Name Yonemitsu. Called Taihei/Tachihira? He is of the Tanabe Yasuhiro line being born in Kumamoto (Higo) in Meiji 21 (1888). Worked with his grand? father from 1902. Died in 1980.

 

All of these artists worked in the provinces that relate to your tsuba. Whether they used the kanji you asked about will need someone from your field to answer.

Hope this helps (and does not just lead you astray).

Regards,

[ROKUJURO]

The plate of the TSUBA reminds me of TENBO style.

[kissakai]

Thanks

All information helps. It gives me something to have a go at

The Tembo punches is a characteristic but the raised figure is not - a difficult one

[kissakai]

Strange, the next post has a possible Tembo tsuba with a raised figure!

Just take me outsided and shoot me for misinformation

[SteveM]

I'd guess this tsuba belongs to the second "Mitsumasa" on that Wakayama page.

 

The first MItsumasa listed is from Matsuyama in Iyo, so well out of the area of Hishū.

 

The third is a possibility, but considering this Mitsumasa is primarily a 20th century artisan, I think we can probably rule him out, thus I'm guessing its the second guy listed. 

[kissakai]

I've just spoken to Bob Haynes and he believes it to be Higo rather than Hizen and dated circa 1825/1850 but not 100% confident of this call