Another find in Indonesia.

[johnb]

About 3 months ago I'd bought 4 very rusty katana from a funny little shop in Ciputat Raya, the street in Jakarta where all the antique shops are. It's run by a funny old chinese guy and he is very tough to bargain with.

Just going off at a tangent for a moment, everyone would love this shop. It's an Aladin's cave. Old Dutch lamps, Chinese pottery and ceramics, in fact you could spend a whole weekend there and still not check out everything. It's a bit of a haunt for Kris collectors as he constantly has a huge supply.

Anyway! The sword I'd left behind had gone, but he did have this one...any info as always, is much appreciated. It's signed tachimei and badly photographed (As always) on my arrival home from work about an hour ago.

Thanks gentlemen (in anticipation).

 

John B

[remzy]

I am still no expert but the mei engraving strokes looks somwhat... uncertain?! Any pro out there who could land a thought?

[johnb]

How polite! I would have said positively clunky!

[mike yeon]

The mei says "Yoshi Tada"? Looks koto judging by the sugata.

 

mike

[Guest reinhard]

Mei on very old blades sometimes look clumsy and not very self-confident. There is a theory, that some of these smiths never had proper education in reading and writing and therefore their mei seem to be rather clumsy efforts in chiselling something, they were not really familiar with. Bungo YUKIHIRA is a famous example. These mei seem even weaker, when rust was scraped from a heavily deteriorated nakago and only the lower part of the chisel-strokes remain.

This is just a option, that should be kept in mind and not necessarily an explanation for this blade. The sugata however looks interesting. It seems to be an unshortened tachi, with its nakago-jiri cut off, elegant koshi-sori and ko-kissaki.

Better pics and some infos of its measurements could be helpful.

[mike yeon]

Mei on very old blades sometimes look clumsy and not very self-confident. There is a theory, that some of these smiths never had proper education in reading and writing and therefore their mei seem to be rather clumsy efforts in chiselling something, they were not really familiar with.

 

True as many early smiths were illiterate and many had others sign their mei for them. The blade does look good but it's unfortunate that it's in such rough condition.

 

mike

[mike yeon]

Something doesn't look right with the mei though in my opinion. The chisel marks look too fresh. Not the smooth worn over look associated with a naturally deteriorating nakago/mei.

 

mike

[Martin]

the 2 Kanji seem to have quite some distance in between...

Can this be regarded as normal/usual ?

 

cheers,

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

this blade is tori-sori, suriage, and not so old (yasurime are visible easily)

 

To my eyes the mei is a "funny one"

[Jean]

Agreed with Jacques,

 

Remember that we are in Indonesia and under such weather an unprotected blade can be ruined by rust in less than a century.

 

The mei looks like it has been scratched and not punched with a chisel.

 

I would have liked (sorry here I go again ) the blade measurements and above all a clear picture of the whole nakago.

 

I won't deduce anything from the sori as I have learned my lesson thanks to Darcy :D . Sori on a suriage blade may be very misleading.

 

By the way, I don't remember very well where I have read this, but a blade can a have several sori (in sue koto Bizen : koshi+saki)

 

The space between the 2 kanji is very curious and those horizontal lines under the second kanji are really strange ....

[mike yeon]

Anyone else think the placement of the first mekugiana is odd...

 

Sori on a suriage blade may be very misleading.

 

Agreed. And without measurements certainly. But sori, even on a suriage blade coupled with other factors, such as the presence of the original mekugiana/mei, I always saw as basic part of kantei as you can imagine what the orignal shape would have been.

 

mike

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

About the mei i've zoomed it

 

 

You can see the chisel strokes clearly and i think it is definitively a "funny mei"

[Jean]

Thanks to Jacques, it is easier to see the chisel strokes which seem to queue up Odd, Odd

[Martin]

Added some sharpness to the Nakago picture.

Maybe the horizontal lines below the second Kanji were made by someone trying to cut down the sword... and then suddenly realized he maybe shouldn´t do that :lol:

 

cheers,

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Mekugiana seems not punched to me.

Feedbacks ?

[mike yeon]

Yes, it looks drilled.

 

mike

[remzy]

So my suspicions about the mei were justified?

[Guest reinhard]

1) The blade is not, or only slightly shortened, visible by the slight broadening towards the habaki-moto (Jacques)

2) The chisel strokes of the mei are clearly visible by their triangular outline (Jean). By the way, what do you mean by: "scratched"?

3) The top mekugi-ana doesn't matter at all, drilled or not, for the bottom one is the one, that should be focussed on (and we haven't seen it yet).

 

If there's something wrong with this sword, you've missed the point yet. And again: Discussing poor photographs will get you nowhere.

 

Reinhard (devil's advocate for once)

[Jean]

hi Reinhard,

 

Sorry for the "scratched", i should have said carved as when you try to carve something on steel with a knife or a needdle....

 

Concerning the blade, without any worsheet I won't say anything.

 

Assumption on the original length of the blade is made in relation with the bottom mekugi ana being the original one. As the mei is probably faked I won't say yes or no to this assumption taking into account that Japanese when they want are champions in Nakago reshaping .....

 

Pictures are of poor quality, please provide a high resolution one of the ENTIRE NAKAGO to see clearly where the yasurime start and end

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

3) The top mekugi-ana doesn't matter at all, drilled or not, for the bottom one is the one, that should be focussed on (and we haven't seen it yet).

 

Sorry. I was under the impression it was the lower one that I was looking

at in the pictures.

[Guest reinhard]

I guess, you are all right with your suspicions, that something's wrong with this sword. Unfortunately the pics of the blade are poor and the only reliable hint we have is the picture of the mei. It gives an uncomfortable feeling, but: This is not enough. Like an accused in court, all aspects have to be taken into consideration to do justice. Therefore I would like to show you two mei of famous swords, both of them Juyo bunkazai and beyond doubt, which proove, that sometimes nakago have been worked over to a degree, that only slight traces of the mei are left, which look weak and a shadow of their former self. The mei on the left belongs to a Tachi by Ko-Bizen YUKIMITSU and the mei on the right to a tanto by Suo Nio KIYOTSUNA.

As the devil's advocate I'm asking you: What else do you have?

[John A Stuart]

Hi Reinhard, While some aged Nihonto show nakago that have much metal loss and oxidation making mei impossible to ascertain, at least they have a nagasa in good enough condition to attribute at least a possible ryu or ha. This is more important then the nakago. Unfortunately the condition of the blade of this sword is beyond any possible restoration and unlikely to ever be attributed to any group or smith. Too bad really, but as such provides no lesson. John

[Jean]

Hi Reinhard,

 

At least in your examples the remaining mei strokes are strong and confident, this is not the case in the example

[Guest reinhard]

Hi John A,

I'm not sure about the impossibility of its restoration. Some nicks and spots would remain, but wether the blade is damaged to its core or not will turn out first, when polishing has begun. JohnB has only the nakago to decide, wether it is worth it or not.

Now my point in prooving, that the mei is false goes like this: When chiselling a mei, the metal is squeezed aside and slightly raised along the edges. Reshaping the nakago erases these ridges and the new yasurime leave tiny marks along the edges of the chisel-strokes. Looking at the improved picture by Martin, the chisel-cuts not only miss these tiny marks but seem to have slightly raised edges here and there. Therefore the mei was added after the reshaping of the nakago.

 

And Jean,

I'm sorry for having failed to scan the pictures properly, but the Yukimitsu-mei does actually look very weak and clumsy on the original photograph. The scanning has somewhat "tightend" the impression. I would give in though on the Kiyotsuna. I've checked the oshigata in the meantime and it looks definitely better than on this badly lit photograph.

 

And JohnB,

You said, you bought 4 rusty katana. Do they all look the same?

[johnb]

I've opened a window any everything has become completely academic. No temperline at all! I haven't gone through enough stones to see if there is any grain.

Dissapointet ment has caused the tape measure to stay in the drawer. Sorry.

Could this have been a non functioning "filler Sword" for presentation?

The rust is far shallower than it looks and I suspect that the core steel would have bee well covered assuming there is a core to this little beast. I have attached more pics. Two more pics in the next post

[johnb]

the rest of the piocs

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

This blade looks like this one :

 

 

Wich is a showato :lol:

 

Reinhard, here is a Bungo yukihira mei (early kamakura) this one looks like a mei

 

 

It's not perfectly engraved but it means something . On our "mistery blade" the second kanji means nothing

[johnb]

They kanji has been hacked into when the sword was shortned by the way, it's quite obvious.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

New pictures...

From the position of the Mei seems the Mekugiana I was watching at

was effectively the lowest one, that supposedly is the original one, and

still resemble to me not punched...

[Brian]

I don't think we need to dwell too much on the specific of this one to the point of argument. As someone once said...studying flaws will get you nowhere fast

You need to be able to recognise them, but we don't need to disect them in minute detail I hope. Anyways..whatever the exact truth on this one, to me is seems like a genuine Japanese sword that has been abused, and probably has a false signature. The rest of the work can be discussed when it is cleaned up and more is visible.

John, are you positive there is no hamon? I have seen them very hard to bring out on some swords. If there is definitely nothing there at all, then my guess would be it was in a fire and has lost the hamon. I see no reason that this one would not have had one at one time. A lot of swords were in fires through the ages.

Clean it up..see what comes out and let us know. For $100, you can't cry over it at least.

 

Brian