dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago.Edo and earlier blades with correct mei, or mumei blades on which the time period, kuni and group can be identified, may receive Hozon paper. Quote
Jean Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Diego, if your sword is very late Shinshinto, Meiji or later, my advice is all the more valid. Don't buy a shortened katana starting Muromachi. This advice is given to newbies so that they won't be disappointed when trying to resell them. Starting Meiji swords should be splendid, pristine and ubu, they were no more in use. You can get a big discount when buying a suriage one but don't expect to have it papered, it is a personnal choice. Ono Yoshimitsu blades don't paper but who cares? One thing for sure, nevertheless, you cannot contest NBTHK shinsa rules, they are Japanese and they rule Nihonto Market. But as stated by Brian, all depends on your collecting goals. Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Yeah Jean, i told that for me is not important the paper, and i don't want to resell nothing, i don't contest anything, i only say that there is some beautiful shinshinto blade with a little suriage made for fitting to another koshirae or a military mounts, sincerly i prefer a splendid shinshinto blade with a little suriage and with mei...than a mediocre blade with ubu nakago but mumei... Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Diego, you're completely missing Jean's point. There were virtually no battles during the Shinshinto period, so there was no reason to cut down a blade for another koshirae. It really helps to understand enough Japanese history to put Nihonto in perspective. And do you really think that you (or I, or Jean) are anything except a caretaker for any sword you may buy? You may keep a blade for the rest of your life, but what about the next caretaker? Wouldn't he/she prefer to know the provenance of that sword? Origami shouldn't be the only reason you choose a blade, but they sure don't hurt! Ken 1 Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Ken but have you reading what i wrote?? I don't think. Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 And sorry ken...but i mean the ww2...is not a war? Why when someone don't know what are saying start with the story of caretaker...this make me smile...please... Last thing, really nobody in Japanese history cut a little piece of nakago to fit in a particular koshirae? Really?? Quote
Jean Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Everybody thinks the same Diego,but I shall only add that I prefer it ubu too than a little suriage Quote
Ray Singer Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Sure? Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago. Yes, I am sure. Meiji and Taisho period blade are not shinshinto. Best regards, Ray Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Yes, I am sure. Meiji and Taisho period blade are not shinshinto. In my opinion, I'll give you taisho since the "gendaito" era's start date is contested, but Meiji is certainly in shinshinto. Quote
Ray Singer Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 My understanding is that the cutoff is either 1868 or 1876 depending on your reference. So, early Meiji perhaps. Different authors treat this differently, with some ending Shinshinto with the Edo period and others using the Haitōrei. Diego, if you have any books to share which indicate Taisho period falls within shinshinto I would welcome seeing them.- Ray Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Ahahah meiji is not shinshinto?? Ahahah read some book please... Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Jean i understand but if a beautiful shinshinto blade, signed and with a correct price, i don't mind if have a little suriage or if will not take a paper... Quote
Guido Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Focuss on quality and a few basic rules like: Don't buy any shortened (suriage) blade starting Muromachi If one focuses only on quality, there should be nothing wrong with buying a suriage blade Muromachi or later. The only reason to not buying it is that it will not receive tokubetsu hozon papers (although I used to own such a sword; it only got th because it was considered an outstanding work). I think you just contradicted yourself, Jean . Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Ahahah meiji is not shinshinto?? Ahahah read some book please... Quote
dig1982 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Posted October 22, 2015 Where there you find yhat i indicate taisho period is shinshinto ray?? Quote
Ray Singer Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 In my opinion, I'll give you taisho since the "gendaito" era's start date is contested, but Meiji is certainly in shinshinto. Hey Joe, I will admit having no idea where the NBTHK draws the line on this one. I'd love to hear if someone knows and can chime in on how they frame these two periods. I have probably seen the 1868 cutoff more often then 1876. Best, Ray Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Most argument I have seen has been whether the end of shinshinto came in 1926 at the beginning of Showa or if it was 1912 at the beginning of Taisho. I'd defer to the historians for what the current opinion is, but I've never read anything refuting Meiji as being a part of shinshinto. Additionally, the Shinshinto Taikan lists Meiji (and Taisho and some showa smiths), for what that is worth. Quote
Stephen Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Sorry Ken S. Seems we have strayed away. Hope its still a learning experience. Mods maybe split the Shinshinto thread into? just a thought. Quote
Ray Singer Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Most argument I have seen has been whether the end of shinshinto came in 1926 at the beginning of Showa or if it was 1912 at the beginning of Taisho. I'd defer to the historians for what the current opinion is, but I've never read anything refuting Meiji as being a part of shinshinto. Additionally, the Shinshinto Taikan lists Meiji (and Taisho and some showa smiths), for what that is worth. A few references, and yes let's split this off if possible. Sorry to have taken the discussion thread on a tangent, Best, Ray Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Well as I'm wrong far more than right, I'm always willing to be corrected. What book is that from? Quote
Ray Singer Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Craft of the Japanese Sword The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords The Art of the Japanese Sword 'Modern Japanese Swords: The Beginning of the Gendaito era' also sets the starting date at 1868. - Ray Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 22, 2015 Report Posted October 22, 2015 Huh. All books I have and have read. I guess it's been awhile and I've allowed internet chatter to skew my perception. Thanks Raymond. Quote
dig1982 Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Posted October 23, 2015 Sorry but blade that made till 1876 are considered shinshinto... Quote
Guido Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 Sorry but blade that made till 1876 are considered shinshinto... Not by all; there are quite a few conservative Japanese collectors who say that we are still in the shinshintō period - I'm not kidding you. In any case, it's the style and construction that should be judged, not a certain date that's arbitrary anyhow. Quote
Jean Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 Guido, I don't see any contradiction between focussing on quality first and then adding a few rules, one of them being ubu starting Muromachi. Both are required starting Muromachi. BTW, about your blade, you did not tell us neither the school nor the smith Quote
Guido Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Guido, I don't see any contradiction between focussing on quality first and then adding a few rules, one of them being ubu starting Muromachi. Both are required starting Muromachi. BTW, about your blade, you did not tell us neither the school nor the smith Why is ubu "required" (except for papering [generally])? The sword: a chūmon-uchi, dated katana by the shodai Daidō. Slightly suriage / machi-okuri, but still 75.5 cm. Mr. Tanobe wrote in his sayagaki (among other things): "..., this is a masterpiece that shows the smith’s characteristics." 1 Quote
Guido Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Btw, I bought this sword (unpapered) for considerably less than the sword that originated this thread, and sold it for considerably more after receiving TH. 1 Quote
Jean Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Guido, These advices are for beginners, I very doubt you are one. If papers did not count you would not have had your Daido sword papered to TH. Papers are a security for newbies. From what I have understood, papering is a thriving business in the States and everybody will try to get the higher paper for his sword. When you go to DTI, you will scarcely find unpapered swords. What you did with your Daido, how many newbies would have been able to do it? Two other requirements I added for newbies are, buy blades in full polish and papered. If blades are not in full polish, how can a newbie see the quality in a piece of rust and if he wants to have it polish and then papered, what will the cost all-in at the end of the day (not mentionning shirasaya, habaki if needed). Papers ensure the newbie a certain security. Even in Japan, the market is for papered blades. 1 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.