Seeking information on inherited WWII bringback tanto . . .

[HankB]

My late father fought in the Pacific during WWII, and brought home a number of battlefield trophies, including Japanese battle flags, binoculars, a periscope, a box of tsuba, and three swords - a long sword (probably a shin-gunto), a wakizashi of uncertain pedigree, and a very nice tanto.

 

My father obtained the tanto from a Japanese general who didn't need it any more; while searching him for maps, orders, documents, etc., he discovered this tanto under the general's tunic, wrapped in a nice sheath.

 

When they hit Japan, modern Japanese couldn't/wouldn't translate the characters, so my father went to the curator of a Japanese museum (no idea which one) where, after some study, the man concluded the tanto was made by "Masamune Fugihara" around 360 years earlier (circa 1585). So the date and the surname (?) indicates it's not by THE Masamune, who worked a couple of hundred years earlier.

 

Now that I've inherited these swords, I'd like some help verifying the above - please view the pictures and tell me what you think. All help would be appreciated, as I'm certainly less than a novice when it comes to this.

 

- Hank B.

[HankB]

Here I have some close-ups of the mei . . . they're faint, so I've included several pictures with different lighting. (Fortunately, I discovered this site before I did anything foolish . . . such as trying to buff off the corrosion!)

 

- Hank B.

[HankB]

Here are some close ups of the blade, the utility knife, and detail of the sheath . . .

 

- HankB

[HankB]

And finally, I still have the original note from when my father had the curator look at the tanto in 1945 . . . it's not my Dad's handwriting, so it belongs either to the curator or a military translator. I've included a detail of some Japanese writing printed on the paper - I don't know whether it's museum stationary or if it came from a Japanese laundry.

 

Again, any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

- Hank B.

[Gabriel L]

Hi Hank B, and welcome to the NMB!

 

Wow, what an entry! Good first post, and story. That is definitely a fine old blade you have there, and in beautiful mounts (love the lacquer style). All of it thoroughly authentic and quite nice looking besides (very good that you didn't touch it in any way, and it looks pretty well preserved for a WWII blade - most inherited WWII"souvenirs" are not properly maintained, did you or someone else keep this one oiled, or else in some dry airtight place?).

 

3000 yen! To put it lightly, in today's market that would be a ludicrous undervaluation. Amazing.

 

I'm afraid I'm not of much help on the practical side of ID'ing this particular blade. I see no obvious listing of any Masamune from the Keicho era (1596-1615) in John Yumoto's or Kokan Nagayama's books, but these are basic guides that touch on only the more important smiths; I'm sure that someone with a proper reference (Hawley's, the Nihonto Koza, etc.) will be better able to help on this regard.

 

I have to go so I cannot look much more closely at this for the moment; also I'll be away this weekend, but I look forward to seeing further results of this interesting thread come Monday.

Cheers,

-GLL

 

EDIT: I just realized Hawley's only costs $160. Guess that multi-year bit of procrastination just ended - ordering now.

[Darcy]

It is a lovely piece you have there, with everything intact, the sword bag and the note from when it was received. Almost always something is missing, so it is nice to see something like this.

 

The curator has indicated that this is "Fujiwara Masamune" of the Keicho era, which would be a smith who signed Mutsu no Kami Fujiwara Masamune or Tosa no Kami Fujiwara Masamune.

 

Fujishiro rates him at Chu-jo saku, for above average make. He's rated at 1.8 million yen in the Toko Taikan. Worked in Musashi province.

 

I wouldn't be able to get that off of the nakago itself as the mei is pretty faint, but it seems like a plausible reading and the shape of the tanto matches up with the period. Tanto fell out of favor around this time.

[Darcy]

Also someone who knows more about fittings can comment on the school. Did you check for a signature on the fuchi? I like this style a lot personally, and hope you choose to keep and preserve them. The tanto and also the koshirae should paper I think to Tokubetsu Hozon levels if you cared to do this.

 

Also again kudos to your father for taking such good care of this. So many items were destroyed or misused or just fell into disrepair, almost always just out of a lack of understanding on the part of the people who owned them in what they had. Many treasures lost... so it is nice to see one that was shown some respect and not abused.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Refreshing to know that there still is the possibility to find bring-back items

not abused.

 

All my respects to the original owner for having preserved them and to the present-day one to have understand their value.

[BC Smith]

Hi Hank welcome to the board, what a fantastic treasure you have there, you have certainly come to the right place as there are people here that will help and advise you on your pieces, so many claim that the sword they have was captured from a general these days, but this one story is certainly believable that it came from a high ranking officer, your father really looked after this piece and in doing so has preserved a gem for a long time to come.

 

Bernie

[Ed Harbulak]

That is indeed a very nice tanto with excellent fittings and history. I'm sure now we are all curious to see the other two blades your father brought back. While you indicated they are not of the same quality as the tanto, still, don't discount them completely. You never know what other treasures are out there. Congratulations to your late father and yourself for taking great care of these relics of the past.

Ed Harbulak

[Grey Doffin]

I read the last 2 Kanji as "Masamune" but the 1st 2 don't look like "Fujiwara" (a clan name). Also, the mei is cut so shallow I'm wondering if this is more of an attribution, tending toward gimei or fake signature, than a signature. I've seen this many times, where the mei is shallow and looks nothing like the real signature of the smith in question. (Quite often the smith in question is Masamune, the most famous of all Japanese swordsmiths. Funny how that works.)

No way this tanto is Masamune; it's not his work. How do you guys feel about something late Koto or early Shinto (late 15th through 17th century)?

Don't mean to bad mouth the tanto; it's still a wonderful piece. Just curious what it is.

Grey

[HankB]

Thanks to all for the kind comments so far. My father kept the tanto oiled - though probably with gun oil rather than choji oil - and I've kept it in my gun safe (which has a couple of cans of silica gel) for a number of years.

 

Now that I think about it, I remember my father telling me that he and a buddy were searching the Japanese general, and his buddy wanted a "big sword." Since my Dad already had a few, he said fine, you take that, and I'll see what else he has. And that's when the tanto was discovered. He knew he got the better end of the deal when he took it out of the pouch . . . and so did his buddy.

 

In one of my initial posts, the image "detail 3" has a close up of the characters on the utility knife - does anyone have a translation?

 

Would a tanto like this have been made for a specific individual? And do the fittings give any indication of who this individual might have been, or his station? (Presumably, it wasn't made for a peasant.)

 

No way this tanto is Masamune; it's not his work.

I can't argue with this - in fact, I stated at the outset that since the curator dated it to the late 1500s, it was made hundreds of years too late to be the work of THE Masamune, and I wouldn't represent it otherwise.

Just curious what it is.

Me too!

 

- Hank B.

[Tim]

Hi Hank, beautiful piece! Would like to see the others you have too!

 

As for who it was made for, most likely (due to its age) it is probably a family piece, probably passed through some generations. (just my opinion)

 

Tim

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi Hank

 

Hi Gabriel. Glad to meet you here too.

[Curran]

Dear Hank,

 

Darcy told me about your post. My interest is mostly fittings.

 

Nice koshirae you have. It looks like a matching set of waki-Goto fittings. Probably no signatures on any of the fittings then? Maybe signed on the kogai? The saya lacquerwork is very nice with skilled use of the crushed abalone shell (?) to get that stardust glitter look. The tsuka wrap looks like it has been *very* well maintained since WW2 bring back. Instead of same under the tsuka wrap, it looks like brocade silk was used? Any menuki?

 

If you still have that box of tsuba, I'd love to see them. Just spread them out on a blanket and take a photo. It is a fun challenge to play 'ID that tsuba'.

 

Best o'Nihonto to you,

 

Curran

[Nobody]

In one of my initial posts, the image "detail 3" has a close up of the characters on the utility knife - does anyone have a translation?

The mei on the kogatana reads "Kaga Jiro Fujiwara Morimichi (加賀次郎藤原盛道)".

[waynes]

Hi Hank welcome to the forum. The condition of the tanto is amazing. Very nice all the way around. As for your fathers use of gun oil, I use it sometimes on blades. I hope you decide to take care of it as well as he did and keep it in the family. I can't wait to see the other swords. One last thing I would definitely go for shinsa with both blade and koshirae.

[Gabriel L]

Hi Hank

Hi Gabriel. Glad to meet you here too.

Haha, hi Carlo. Yeah, I never posted here much for some reason. Longtime lurker.

 

Hank, oil (gun oil is evidently tolerable though not traditional ) and a gun safe with silica is textbook for preservation. That last ~60 years of care will have saved you quite a lot of money, since this tanto might very well be able to go through shinsa without an expensive brand new polish. Speaking of which, Darcy's comment that both the blade and mounts could possibly paper to Tokubetsu Hozon is a pretty solid vote of quality.

 

Congrats on a fine item,

-GLL

[HankB]

Gee . . .thanks to everyone for all the nice comments, both on the tanto and in the related thread I started on a daito. At least SOMEthing is going right this week . . . :D

 

If I don't have to get the blade polished, so much the better. (The only "polishing" I've done is to wipe it down with a clean microfiber cloth . . . I've learned enough here to NOT even THINK about scrubbing it with rubbing compound or even Simichrome . . . on a buffing wheel. )

 

How does one go about getting a blade and mounts "papered?" (remember I'm less than a novice in this area). A link would be appreciated.

[Darcy]

Papering isn't cheap... to paper both to Tokubetsu Hozon will cost you close to $2,000 after everything is tallied.

 

Basically you would get an agent to submit them to the NBTHK in Japan, send them, pay everyone who touches them a fee, and then pay for the papers.

 

Or you could bring them to one of the travelling NTHK shows, and pay much less, you'd get NTHK paperwork which is less popular but going this route would cost you I think maybe $300? Plus your travel time unless you mail them to someone who can bring them in for you.

 

I usually use Bob Benson to submit swords to the NBTHK.

 

If you are keeping these items to enjoy, don't bother with the papers.

 

The unsigned daito though, it should be attributed to find out if it is run of the mill or something important.

[Gabriel L]

To expound on Darcy's comments... he has a nice writeup on ratings on his website. Bob Benson's site is Bushido Japanese Swords, and he has a page on NBTHK shinsa here.

 

Basically, shinsa is an process whereby a blade is attributed by a panel of recognized experts, or an attributed blade is upgraded in status, and issued official papers to that effect. The NBTHK and NTHK are the two most widely accepted organizations that hold shinsa. As Darcy said, pursuing the highest level of paper that these blades might conceivably attain is probably a waste of money if you don't want to sell them, but at least submitting the unidentified sword for the first level (Hozon, in the NBTHK system) is advisable just in case it is something special that needs restoration. Hozon indicates "worthy of preservation" after all.

[Grey Doffin]

Hank,

On whether to get papers or not... Papers can increase the value of your swords should you wish to sell. If you get a paper that says the blade was made by an important smith, a buyer will pay more. However, if the papering organization looks at your tanto and determines that the signature is not right they might require that the signature be removed before papering. This could happen if, for example, the signature claims that the tanto was made by the important Masamune or even if it claims another Masamune but the shinsa team disagrees. The signature is removed by a polisher, is neatly done, and costs a bit. If the shinsa team then papers the tanto to an unimportant smith you really haven't gained much.

With the daito, once again the value can increase with a good paper. If you plan never to sell, this won't make much difference. However, unless you live forever or get buried with the sword, it will pass down to future generations and a paper might help your children get a good price if they decide to sell.

If you can find someone or someones to give opinions on what you might expect out of a shinsa (they would have to see the blades in hand) that might be a good way to start. Bear in mind that asking a collector/dealer to give an honest opinion on something good is much like asking a shark to carefully examine your flesh wound. It is possible to get an honest opinion but the opposite happens as well. Maybe if you could get to a Japanese sword show (San Francisco in August, Tampa in February, Chicago in May, and possibly Minneapolis in June) you could show it around.

Whether you paper or not, sell or not, you need to know how to properly care for these swords (not that you haven't done a good job already). Here is a link to a sword care and etiquette page put together by the American Branch of the NBTHK. http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Hope this makes some sense.

Grey

[HankB]

Thanks to everyone for the information they shared . . . my job sometimes takes me up to Minneapolis and/or the Chicago area, so if it's at all possible, I'll time my next trip to coincide with a show & shinsa event there.

 

Now for the big question . . . with the understanding that one can't accurately appraise ANYTHING from a few snapshots . . . would any experienced nihonto buffs venture to estimate - heck, make an off the wall WAG - of the current value of this tanto in today's market?

 

I'm certain the value to me of this tanto exceeds market value, but I can't help but be curious about the values of all three swords my Dad brought back from the war . . .

 

Thanks.

 

- Hank B.

[Gabriel L]

Well... I'll venture a *very* loose estimated range, if only because I like the taste of my foot. Seriously though, this is not going to mean much except as a sort of abstract inexpert thought exercise. If I was you, I wouldn't bank on my opinion here - I'm no dealer or appraiser.

 

Maybe between $5,000-10,000? And if the blade was given a fresh polish and both blade and mounts papered to Tokubetsu Hozon, bump that up to $7,000-14,000? It's a nice old tanto by a chu-jo saku smith rated at 1.8 million yen (~$15,000 for a flawless full length sword, but the Toko Taikan ratings can be all over the map) with very nice mounts and an interesting history; a very complete package and attractive in quality.

 

Anyway I'm already acting against my better instincts by stating these estimates; please take what I'm saying as the guesses of a novice who is curious with you. Others here could give much more reliable opinions but probably have better sense than to go public with them .

 

In any case, certainly a fine family heirloom.

Cheers,

GLL

[HankB]

Gabriel,

 

Thank you for the rough guesstimate . . . I understand there's a lot of hand-waving there, but I sort of figured the value would probably fall somwhere in the range you mentioned, and I'm less than a novice at this.

 

Just as a data point, around 12 or 14 years back a guy was advertising "I Buy Swords" in the local newspaper, working out of a local hotel room. I went by with a buddy of mine over my lunch break, more out of curiosity than anything else, just to see what he'd offer me.

 

The guy said the tanto was by "Norimitsu, a nobody smith" (I can't get that name from the mei no matter how I look at it) . . . and offered me $2800 cash right there.

 

My buddy said he had no doubt the guy was low-balling me, as he said when the guy turned around to get a better look under a lamp, his eyes got wide and he was almost drooling. :lol:

 

Even if offered something on the high end of your estimate, the tanto would stay in my family - having inherited it from my dad, it means quite a bit to me.

[Gabriel L]

No problem Hank. I wanted to backtrack a bit; we don't actually know that this is by the particular Fujiwara Masamune mentioned, so for me to say "it's chu-jo saku, rated 1.8 million yen in the Toko Taikan," etc. is misleading - I meant that in the context of "if it papered to TH under that name." But I think (emphasis on "think") my estimates are reasonable based on the quality of the blade and mounts regardless.

 

Have you tried making a rubbing of the nakago, or is the topography of the mei even shallower than the visual contrast? It looks like it's so shallow that it's mostly visible through discoloration, in which case a rubbing would be even less clear, but you'd have to tell us if it's worth a try. I personally can sort of fit "Fujiwara" into the few light marks visible, but that's indicative of nothing whatsoever except the power of suggestion. Not that the reading by the Japanese curator is implausible; the state of the nakago and the style of the tanto itself both fit the time period well enough. But a rubbing is free and easy in any case.

 

On an unrelated note, I like the wari kogai - don't see that as often and it's a neat style.

[HankB]

Gabriel,

 

No problem . . . there's no way I'd expect someone to accurately judge a blade from pictures posted on an Internet forum . . . and serious appraisal would certainly require a "hands on" evaluation.

 

If you take a look at the picture of the note describing the blade (again, I don't know if it's the curator's handwriting or that of a military translator) there's some Japanese printing on the paper itself . . . can anyone provide a translation?

 

As I said, I don't know if its museum stationary or if it came from a Japanese laundry or grocery store . . .but it would be interesting to know what it says.

[Nobody]

If you take a look at the picture of the note describing the blade (again, I don't know if it's the curator's handwriting or that of a military translator) there's some Japanese printing on the paper itself . . . can anyone provide a translation?

That sheet seems to be a memorandum for communication.

The printed formats to be filled are as follows;

 

The time and date of the Dispatch:

The time and date of the Reception:

Recipient:

Place of dispatch:

Sender:

[HankB]

Thank you, Moriyama-san.

 

 

 

- Hank B.