Quick question on recarving of Horimono

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello all. Recently I saw some images of swords which had remains of horimono but which were polished in such a manner that the horimono was almost gone or in some cases just flattened in some areas. like a dragon which head had all but gone.

 

So my question is, are swords which are polished and which lose their horimono at times recarved ?

 

KM

[Jean]

At 90% no. (There are always exceptions but scarce)

[Pete Klein]

Interesting question. I would have to wonder if there might be a perforation issue with re-carving? There's only so much thickness after all.

[cabowen]

Sometimes a horimono is redone but it is expensive and unless the blade is worthy, usually it is left alone. Some prefer the polished down look as this is confirmation of age. Others prefer to restore the horimono. Personal preference I suppose. The only consideration for restoration is to be sure the person recutting is first rate and will do nothing to diminish the work.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Interesting question. I would have to wonder if there might be a perforation issue with re-carving? There's only so much thickness after all.

 

The only consideration for restoration is to be sure the person recutting is first rate and will do nothing to diminish the work.

 

 

Indeed, it is critical that one finds the artisans with the ability and skills and understanding of horimono and sword construction to perform and execute what needs to be done as this is where mistakes cannot be made, period. So, let's talk about "Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin", as the story goes.

 

As an example of tight margins, the sword imaged below (a naginata naoshi katana), measures 2 mm at the moto kasane and 1.7 mm at the saki kasane, the sword then widens (at most) another 1mm on each side to its thickest point across at the shinogi, giving a total width of ~ 4 mm before narrowing back down to the ha. On this sword the old soe bi on both sides over time had been polished down and not recut, as a result the center section of the soe bi was gone on both sides, with the remaining ends of the soe bi being roughly 1/2 mm or less deep. It was decided to recut the soe bi as part of the new polish.

 

The newly cut soe bi runs 1mm deep on each side leaving (at most), only 2mm in between. Which does not leave much room for margin of error especially when one considers that the newly cut soe bi was cut free hand with no jig or guide used. The polisher then polished the new groove when polishing the rest of the blade. The result (on close inspection to the eye), looks almost like a machine cut groove for both straightness and depth. Which is most impressive especially when seeing the before and after.

 

 

 

P.S. wish to make clear that recutting hi is one thing, personally I would not go beyond the polishing of horimono.

[John A Stuart]

Simple horimono probably. More detailed less so. If made by a renowned horimomoshi never. John

[Gunome]

It was told to me that some horimono were cut for religious significances (Buddhist mantra) and should not been recarved to respect the prayers or the person who did it.

Pretty sure this doesn't apply to all horimono as someones are just done to hide flaws.

[kusunokimasahige]

Well I can imagine that Samurai who ordered a sword with Horimono, after some polishes would have had the horimono recarved, if only out of aesthetic reasons. Unless in those days, as today, a flattened or worn horimono was seen as part of the age of the blade.

 

I have not yet come across any contemporary writings on this. Maybe Markus Sesko or other scholars have.

 

Indeed, these days it is hardly ever done as some already have pointed out.

 

That of course adds to the question; were horimono seen as integral part of the blade itself and its overall beauty,

or just as an addition.

 

KM

[seattle1]

Hello:

Interesting question!

If the horimono is of good initial quality, as one would expect on a quality sword, reduction that has occurred through time by polishing will continue to leave a pleasing horimono, down to the last vestiges. However if the owner goes ahead the outcome might be value subtracting rather than adding. At some point most swords worth having will find their way to shinsa and a re-done horimono might be viewed as an atoh-bori, usually leading to lower points, and it might limit the level of a paper awarded. Using the NBTHK system, Hozon rather than Tokubetsu Hozan, Tokubetsu Hozon rather than Juyo, Juyo rather than T. Juyo. If one has a good sword at least consider the trade-offs. It could go either way, but the owner would really have to bank on a lot of aesthetic gain for himself personally, to discount the risks. If it is done after a paper is awarded, it could dilute the validity of the paper.

Arnold F.

[Jean]

H-J,

 

Have a look at pictures of swords having Horimono, compare the freshness of their horimono with the dates when they were carved and you get the beginning of an answer. In the same manner compare how is the sword compare to its horimono. I have seldom seen on koto blades original recarved horimono.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just last week one of the members of our NBTHK group, a youngish Horimono-shi who tends to do well in the national competitions, gave a talk and this particular subject inevitably came up. I raised my hand and asked a cheeky question, "If you completely redo the hori, whose work does it then become?" He was acutely aware of this and in many cases says he simply refuses requests to do certain jobs. On others he can help out with the owner's wishes.

 

Interestingly his teacher Yanagimura Senju Sensei has traditionally told his deshi to carve with enough depth to allow for at least two subsequent togi without the Togishi having to worry about the stones touching the surface of the horimono.

 

Of course good horimono in their own right sometimes deserve and bear the Mei of the carver added separately to the tang.

 

Even in the old days, some smiths may have been confident enough to carve their own horimono, he said.

[Jean]

Tadatsuna, Yoshitane among others...

[runagmc]

Did Yoshitane make swords? I don't remember ever hearing that... maybe I forgot...

[John A Stuart]

Yes, I I believe so, a student of Naotane and Masahide, he was an all rounder. John

[runagmc]

I know Nobuhide did both, but for some reason I was thinking Yoshitane specialized in horimono. I'll have to go back and read about him again. Maybe the best horimono-shi ever... although Yanagimura sensei is right there as well, from what I've seen. Both amazing...

 

I don't know if I've seen a sword by Yoshitane...

[Jean]

He started his career as a smith before shifting to horimono engraving, there are few extant of his work as a smith.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Speaking of Horimono carver, Yoshitane ...... http://www.sho-shin.com/naotane.htm

[Jean]

It has been there for years Franco but still unsold...

[nagamaki - Franco]

Yes, Jean, posted this link for those unfamiliar with Yoshitane horimono, a picture being worth ...... .

It might also serve to pop a few newbie's bubbles for getting overexcited about mediocre horimono that drives the price of mediocre swords up.

[Jean]

In fact, Franco, I was wondering what was its price.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Bonjour Jean, I'm almost certain that Robert at ShoShin would be glad to give you a quote. A very tempting package.

[Jean]

Franco,

 

I have noticed that a lot of his swords for sale have been on his website for several years. I think that ot is because he is out of the market price.

[Darcy]

That page predates me as a nihonto collector. So, 14+ years old.

 

In that time the sword may have been bought and sold and bought and sold again. I don't think the status on the page is kept up to date.

 

The horimono is exquisite though.

[nagamaki - Franco]

As a good sword friend might say, the sword is still looking for the right owner to come along.