Drago Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi, well, my interests lie more in swords than armor, although I have to say I am interested in Kote. So could you please explain to me, who has absolutely no idea, what the difference between Yoroi and Katchu is. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 甲冑 katchu, armour with helmet; 鎧 yoroi, armour (more in the sense of being armoured) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uwe Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 There are also a special type of armor called "O-Yoroi". Evolved around the Heian period, particularly for mounted use. Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 In my experience, most (modern day) Japanese call a set of armor "yoroi-kabuto", not "katchû", in the same way the call all swords "katana" and not "nihontô". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 could you please explain to me, who has absolutely no idea, what the difference between Yoroi and Katchu is. Yoroi would be used to describe something that is armored or used along with armor, yoroi hitsu/bitsu is a armor storage box, yoroi doshi is an armor piercing knife, yoroi hitatari is clothing worn under armor, yoroi katabira is an armored jacket. Katchu is a general term for Japanese armor, like if you were a katchu fanatic, you could say that you really want to learn more about katchu. Gusoku is the term for a suit of armor, if you see a suit of Japanese armor you could say that you saw a fantastic gusoku today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Yoroi 鎧 isn't just any kind of armoring, but specifically medieval body armor (from all countries). Kabuto 兜 means helmet, and together they are Yoroikabuto 鎧兜. Katchū 甲冑 has basically the same meaning, but is mostly used in written Japanese, and more formal. (Tōsei) Gusoku (当世) 具足 is a certain type of armor used from the Sengoku Jidai on; before that, there were (going back in time) the Haraate 腹当, Haramaki 腹巻, Dōmaru 胴丸, Ōyoroi 大鎧, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drago Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Ooh! I see. Thank you very much! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Yoroi 鎧 isn't just any kind of armoring, but specifically medieval body armor (from all countries). Kabuto 兜 means helmet, and together they are Yoroikabuto 鎧兜. Katchū 甲冑 has basically the same meaning, but is mostly used in written Japanese, and more formal. (Tōsei) Gusoku (当世) 具足 is a certain type of armor used from the Sengoku Jidai on; before that, there were (going back in time) the Haraate 腹当, Haramaki 腹巻, Dōmaru 胴丸, Ōyoroi 大鎧, etc. Guido, thats not how most English speaking collectors, dealers etc use these words, no one says "yoroi kabuto", we just say "kabuto" along with a descriptive term such as "zunari kabuto" or "suji bachi kabuto". Why would we say "yoroi kaburo" when we are not talking about a helmet, and if we were talking about a helmet we would not need to add "yoroi", maybe in Japan they use these terms the way you mention. We would use "yoroi" to show that a certain item is armor related or is armored, such as "yoroi hakama" (armored pants) as compared to just plain "hakama", or "yoroi katabira" (armored jacket) to differentiate from a plain "katabira". To English speaking people who have an interest in Japanese armor "katchu" simply means Japanese armor, "tosei gusoku" describes the new type of plate armors that came into use during the 1500s as compared to the older types of scale based armors, "gusoku" means a full suit of armor, "haraate", "haramaki", "domaru", "o-yoroi" are specific types of armors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Why would we say "yoroi kaburo" when we are not talking about a helmet, and if we were talking about a helmet we would not need to add "yoroi", maybe in Japan they use these terms the way you mention.Please show me at least the courtesy of actually reading what I write - (body) armor is Yoroi, a helmet is a Kabuto, only if the two are together it's called Yoroikabuto....' date=' such as "yoroi hakama" (armored pants) as compared to just plain "hakama", or "yoroi katabira" (armored jacket) to differentiate from a plain "katabira".[/quote']Yoroi Hakama are not armored pants, but Hakama worn under armor.... "tosei gusoku" describes the new type of plate armors that came into use during the 1500s ...That's what *I* explained' date=' above you said Gusoku is the term for a suit of armor, if you see a suit of Japanese armor you could say that you saw a fantastic gusoku today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Eric, I am sorry but it is of absolutely NO interest or concern how Western Collectors use these Japanese terms. The question was So could you please explain to me, who has absolutely no idea, what the difference between Yoroi and Katchu is. How do you know what he means by this exactly, I am explaining how people who own and discuss armor use the terms he was asking about. If you say for example that you have a "yoroi kabuto" you will get laughed at in an English speaking forum. If you or anyone else has some knowledge of how these terms are used in another context then by all means say so but do not pretend to be able to read the mind of the original poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drago Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 The reason I asked for the difference was this: The subforum here is called KATCHU. But searching for that hardly brings any results on eBay. But YOROI on the other hand does. I'm not saying I really intend to buy on eBay, but I keep looking for pictures and perhaps one lucky shot. So for me it is only natural to ask what the difference is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Chop Chop....pruned. 2 Things to consider here. Firstly, we DO need to know the correct terminology as used in Japan, if we are going to study a Japanese subject. I know first hand how silly we sound when in Japan and asking an antique shop owner for "tsuba" or most of the other words we use. Please listen to those who do know how they are used properly..they have spent years in Japan and aren't just correcting us because it gives them warm fuzzies. We may be a Western forum, and we will probably continue to use words as we have learned them...so that we all know what we are talking about among ourselves. But there is no harm in at least listening to advice. Secondly, as collectors and in particular Western collectors..we do have our own commonly accepted terminology. An easy example is Showato and Gendaito. Their true meanings are completely different to how we use them. But we need to remember that if we converse in Japan or expect others to understand. So bear in mind that not all the words we use are correct. But they sometimes make life easier. Why do we need to argue over this, when it is something we can all agree on? Don't bring the arguments here to NMB...if you want to fight over Yoroi/Katchu/kabuto/gusoko etc...fight on the Nihon-no Katchu forum and get it over with, then come back here and be nice! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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