Mei help

[Dr Fox]

Before we all slow down for the festivities, can I beg help with this smith? Who when and where.

 

Thanks in anticipation

[John A Stuart]

長村兼清 Nagamura Kanekiyo 長村 清三郎 Nagamura Seizaburo (Kiyozaburo) b. May 7 1894 d. Nov 4 1965 worked in Gifu. John

[cabowen]

Showa-to.

[Dr Fox]

Thank you John and Chris.

 

It was only now, that I believed I had seen this, or its twin somewhere before? The The "Kiyo" stamp gave it away, its on the board in the thread Arsenal stamps.

And just as an aside see below, it can't be showa stamped and gendaito, or am I wrong?

[mdiddy]

And just as an aside see below, it can't be showa stamped and gendaito, or am I wrong?

 

You are correct, it can not be showa stamped and gendaito.

[Dr Fox]

Cheers Matt

 

I can now wear my smug mug over Christmas.

 

You have a good one.

[loiner1965]

this is most confusing to newbies as this is what they find on the internet

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/showato.htm

i have a seki stamped katana by kanetoshi and its definately hand made as it as lovely itame grain in it and they was another katana with the same specs as mine by him on the internet sales described as gendaito.

i have also a showa stamped katana by kanemune who as ade gendaito blades as well but its out of polish to determine wether hand made or not....both blades carry tang kaos

[Brian]

Steve

I know you bring up that sword whenever the topic comes up...but even though there may be the rare or odd exception, the definitions on that page stand, and are how we all understand it. I am certainly not going to rehash all the pages that have been written about it. The fact is that for all intents and purposes....a Showa or Seki stamp indicates NON-traditionally made. That there may be Showato showing some hada or some nie doesn't change that. They might have been using modern steel and other non-traditional methods. Whatever the case, an exception does not change the rule.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Seasons greetings Steve.

 

The link you posted, if I were to look for a definition, of gendiato seems to be quite explicit. But I take the points you make on board.

 

All the best.

[loiner1965]

Steve

I know you bring up that sword whenever the topic comes up...but even though there may be the rare or odd exception, the definitions on that page stand, and are how we all understand it. I am certainly not going to rehash all the pages that have been written about it. The fact is that for all intents and purposes....a Showa or Seki stamp indicates NON-traditionally made. That there may be Showato showing some hada or some nie doesn't change that. They might have been using modern steel and other non-traditional methods. Whatever the case, an exception does not change the rule.

 

Brian

sorry brian for any misunderstandings i may have caused.

as we know nothing is set in stone in nihonto and they are always exception to the rules as my kanetoshi katana shows.

but as you say gendaito as we understand it means traditionally / handmade rather than era.

it must be so confusing for newcomers..

merry christmas to you all

[cabowen]

It bears mentioning that a sword can be hand made and still not be a traditional nihonto. There are surely WWII era swords that show some type of hada and yet they are not considered nihonto. The definition consists of a particular kind of material (tamahagane or oroshigane), a method of construction (orikaeshi tanren) and a particular type of hardening (water quench).

 

The Seki and Sho stamps were placed for a reason- to indicate non-traditional manufacture. One reason mentioned for these stamps was to differentiate them from traditionally made blades precisely because it was sometimes difficult to impossible to tell them apart by a visual inspection. Don't let the tail wag the dog: if it is stamped with a Seki or Sho stamp, there is most likely a reason, even if you can't see it.

[loiner1965]

I agree Chris

I think its handmade and folded but not traditionally made with tamahagne

I read on another forum years ago and it showed you stamped guntos

That displayed hada ( not as nice as mine though) lol and it explained some were water and oil quenched.

As Brian said these were exceptions to the rules

All I wanted to explain to the poster was gendaito means different meaning to each forum / organisation

We here refer it to traditionally made where some top sellers and nihonto forums see it as era

This conflict must be really confusing to newcomers

One day I will have to get another gunto polished as he is another smith who produced low to medium grade swords but occasionally made top quality.... Kanemune

[loiner1965]

http://Www.japanesesword.com/Images/Swo ... nto14.html

Took me awhile to find this gentlemen but this sword is identical to mine apart from the Saya and mine is in fresh polish.

The sword is very well balanced in the hand and feels lighter than others I've held

edit..... mine is stamped with his full name and bears a hot stamp /kao on the tang which i cannot find any meaning to but presume its of buddist origin.

[Brian]

Steve,

You are right in that Gendai refers to age and not really construction method, as does Showato. Yep..it can be confusing to newcomers. I had better check the FAQ and make sure that is addressed in it to clear up the confusion. Dr Stein explains it well in the link above.

 

And I also have no doubt that in the many thousands of blades that went to war...there must be some true Gendaito that were stamped with arsenal stamps. For every rule in Nihonto ..there is an exception.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

While it does indeed refer to era of production, to those in the field it implies traditionally made as well. If a dealer uses gendaito to refer to a non-traditionally made sword, he is either being deceitful or he doesn't know what he is doing. As mentioned, showa-to also refers to a period of manufacture, but it implies non-traditionally made. It is indeed confusing...