Chasing Nihonto or papers??

[Alex A]

Whilst fighting the latest bout of man-flu, i just happened to pick up "facts and fundamentals". A paragraph in the book (pictured below) amused me. I must say, i am in favour of papers backing up the legitimacy of a sword, but as Nobuo Nakahara stated in his book (some time ago), are folk dealing on papers?.

 

I read not so long ago that one member, whilst looking at a sword collection, did not see any merit in a Juyo blade, which at the time, did get me curious. I can understand why a sword may warrant higher papers, either because of smith/rarity/workmanship or historical importance, but heres the question (naive maybe). What differences/activities would you see in a $15000 Juyo blade that could not be found in say a $4000 blade? (or cheaper). Are there Juyo blades that simply do not deserve the title or the price tags?. A case of just needing to ask.

 

Ranking systems and price tags have a long tradition.

[Brian]

Someone would firstly have to have studied HOW to appreciate Nihonto before they could answer that question and see the difference.

And secondly, it is like asking what is in a Picasso or Van Gough that cannot be seen in your neighbours painting he did yesterday. You need to know the medium first before you can appreciate it.

Do you know what a good controlled hamon is compared to a wild but unskilled one? Do you know what good nioi or nie deki looks like? What hataraki are controlled and well done vs accidental ones? A good hada vs one that is open and lacks refinement? Perfect lines and "flat water" vs lines that meander?

You have to know all of this before you can appreciate top swords and why they are such. Most of them are such because of the craftsmanship...not just because they are very old or rare.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Cheers for throwing some light on it Brian. For most of us Juyo level is too expensive, but It would be interesting to get opinions on what blades offer the best value in the lower price range, in regards workmanship and quality (hada/hamon/activites etc).

[eternal_newbie]

And secondly, it is like asking what is in a Picasso or Van Gough that cannot be seen in your neighbours painting he did yesterday.

I wonder, if there were a (more or less) universally recognised system for 'papering' Picassos, Van Goghs and the like, would we see a similar difference start to emerge between an officially attributed work complete with documentation, and one that looks exactly like the work of that artist and time period but lacking any official papers?

 

And now back to the original post...

 

Are there Juyo blades that simply do not deserve the title or the price tags?. A case of just needing to ask.

A better phrasing would be "a case of just needing to know whom to ask." Even assuming any two collectors/dealers know everything there is to know about nihonto, you may still receive completely different answers depending on their personal tastes. Many people might agree that a Yoshioka Ichimonji tachi with brilliant utsuri and hamon like dancing flames is worthy of Juyo status, but if the person you are asking prefers conservative, tranquil Yamashiro workmanship and dislikes flamboyance in a sword? I suspect you may receive a different opinion unless the sword is of truly peerless quality or historical significance. To this end it might be worthwhile following the example of movie buffs and finding an expert(s) whose tastes seem to match up with your own and take notes on their own recommendations or personal collection.

[seattle1]

Hello:

I believe Brian's reply above is very good and stresses the appreciation skills required on the part of the buyer/owner. It is also useful to check out the NBTHK's criteria as displayed in Danny Massey's nihontocraft.com site; go to Articles, then to NBTHK Shinsa Standards. The impression given is sort of that of a sieve, as what gets through to Juyo level is carefully filtered. Beyond just quality as they see it there are other reasons for wanting a Juyo designation, the difficulty of getting one being reflected in price. For the NBTHK quality is the main criterion, the art-historical importance of the blade plays a role too, as I believe also does scarcity, other things equal.

The NTHK, in both of its versions, also awards a similar paper, the Yushu and Sai Yushu papers, and the now defunct Toen-sha did the same. Those papers were and are also hard to get. As I understand it there are slight differences between NBTHK and NTHK criteria, the latter putting somewhat more weigh yet on state of preservation, and it is for that reason the quite new blades going into the gendai era will be found in its catalogs.

Season's Greetings All!

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Your question raises several issues....

 

Surely, as Brian has mentioned, one first needs a thorough understanding of the subject in order to have the ability to appreciate the finer points distinguishing the good swords from the better ones.

 

That being said, the Juyo selection process is not, as the record shows, always the most consistent. Since the shinsa is performed by a team of people, and the makeup of the team has changed over time, one can certainly expect a variation in results. One needs to keep in mind that there are other factors at play as well that are highly likely to have created some noise in the process.

 

Additionally, one needs to be objective and not let personal preferences overshadow the appraisal process. You must acknowledge quality even if it doesn't come in one's preferred flavor.

 

Finally, I don't think there can be any doubt that occasionally relatively unknown or low ranking smiths can hit a home run and produce a high quality blade. There are many examples out there and in my opinion they represent excellent value; it is likely they will not get top level papers simply because they are not big names. Keep in mind that papers do not make a sword better, they only make collectors feel better about the sword. As I am fond of saying, learn what real quality is and emancipate yourself...

[b.hennick]

There are many good to excellent blades that have not been submitted to shinsa and so have no papers. I found one and Brian Tschneraga found one at the last Tampa show. There are blades with hozon or Tokubetsu papers that are far more expensive than blades with juyo papers. As a mentor of mine always says buy the sword not the paper.

The big problem is that you need knowledge to make the determination on quality. Here is a thread I started on kantei for quality.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12083

 

Papers are an advantage when selling.

[raven2]

Interestingly enough, I was also reading the same book yesterday and was thinking about the exact same statement. I have always been of the opinion that you look at the blade first and the papers are a nice plus because as Barry says, it makes it easier to sell if you want to. A friend of mine also told me the same thing. Look for and get quality whether papered or not.

[Alex A]

Thanks everyone for your wise words. It had slipped my mind that there are very expensive blades with hozen papers. I suppose some folk will be happy enough with the provenience that Hozen brings, or maybe there are other reasons they dont go for the prestige of Juyo level, either cost or flaws etc. Its good to know that there are good to excellent blades out there waiting to be picked up, at a good price, Juyo papers or not.

 

Cheers for the link Barry, very interesting.

[Jean]

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00167.html

[Alex A]

£29,000....point taken LOL :D

 

Ironically, at the end of my last paragraph, i was going to add a point that at the moment there are some very good, reasonably priced Wakizashi (with hozen) around at the moment....

[cabowen]

There are almost always reasonably priced wakizashi around. Wakizashi always seem to sell at a discount, perhaps as some have conjectured, because it is not usually known if they were merchant or samurai owned.

[Alex A]

An interesting point, from an art point of view, one may wonder why this would put someone off. On the other hand, from an historical point of view, i can understand why it may dissuade some folk. For folk looking to buy good art pieces (by a good smith) at good prices, then i suppose it makes good sense to buy wakizashi, rather than the far more expensive katana. All the artwork is there, just shorter :D. The down side will be finding buyers in the future that think along the same lines. One question though, i presume Koto wakizashi blades where less likely to have been owned by merchants, would this be right?

[paulb]

Alex

Wakazashi proper only appeared at the very end of the koto period. Prior to that the Tanto was the companion sword carried by Samurai.

many Koto blades daito nagimaki and naginata have subsequently been converted in to wakazashi over time.In terms of quality I think you are absolutely right in fact if you think about it in the later Edo period most samurai were poor and the wealth resided with the merchant class. therefore many swords made for merchants had much richer koshirae than those used by samurai. There has been some talk in the past that smiths put less effort in to swords made for marchants but I think this can be discounted. They were committed to thier calling and wanted to produce the best they could. Also why would you produce an inferior product for that part of the market able to pay the highest prices?.

[Alex A]

Thanks Paul, the 2nd time something as slipped my mind in this thread, late Koto as you say. Some folk (newbies in particular), will not be aware that some merchants owned blades as well, ive picked up on it once or twice on NMB, but again, its never really sank in, until now hopefully. It is not something you may read about in the usual selection of starter books, but something well worth knowing about. Cheers!