true Dai-Sho

[peter]

Hello and a happy new year to all,

I am not sure if I have read on this board what a "true" dia sho (large small) is,

A katana/wakizashi or wakizashi /tanto or 2 blades made by the same smith/school or 2 swords of either combination but having matching koshorie of all of the above?

Many thanks

Peter

[paulb]

Happy new year Peter,

I think this topic has been discussed before so a more detailed answer may be found by searching the site.

The most commonly held view (at least the one expressed most often) is that the term refers to a matched set of fittings most often, but not always, a katana and wakazashi. There have been examples illustrated where a katana and tanto in matched fittings are also considered a daisho. The key to a daisho being regarded as authentic is that the fittings for both long and short sword were made to match and by the same artist/artists.

The blades do not have to be by the same smith, school or even time period although a pair of matched blades from a good smith would command a premium. (Take a look at Nihonto.com for a stunning Daisho of Bizen blades in superb fittings).

[b.hennick]

Hello Peter:

Two swords with the same mounts to be worn as a pair made up of a katana and either wakizashi or tanto I consider to be a daisho. I do have a daisho with two swords made by the same smith but many daisho are just two blades mounted similarly. I have seen people call two blades in shirasaya by the same smith a daisho but I disagree with that. To me it is the koshirae that make the daisho. Others believe that the blades themselves must be matching i.e. same smith, father and son, same school etc.

[peter]

Thank you Paul and Barry for your input.

The reason for my asking is i have a katana and long wakizaah in different style shira saya. By father and son/grandson. Bungo Takada Tomoyuki. So in the. Future and when i win the lottery it would be nice to match them up with appropriate fittings

Peter

[kunitaro]

Daisho Uchigatana Koshirae

Harima Honda Family

[drbvac]

Very nice - classy

[cabowen]

wow!

[b.hennick]

Beautiful! No blades just koshirae or are the blades equally as great?

[kunitaro]

No, Only Koshirae

 

However, It will be for sale within 6 month, I think.

It is made by Naomitsu (Yanagawa), preserved perfect condition,

belonged to Harima Honda Family.

True Daimyo item.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Matching koshirae, and/or blades must be made as a matching pair.

[Jean]

Peter,

 

-it is Dai-Sho and not Dia-Sho

 

This subject has been treated at length in the past, please use the search button, from memory there are several pages on this topic.

[Brian]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10842

(I corrected the misspelled title so that we can find it in the future)

 

Brian

[peter]

Thank you Brian that's why I didn't find anything ,

Also thank you kunitaro san for posting such a beautiful set of koshirae ,

I fear my blades would not be of the quality deserving of such fine artistry.

I would love to have seen the original blades.

Peter

[sanjuro]

I dont mean to sound like a nihonto snob, but I have to agree with Franco here. A daisho koshirae is one thing, but a mounted daisho must have not only the matched koshirae but also matched blades. Otherwise any two blades could be mounted as a daisho as long as the koshirae matched.

Unmounted blades (in shirasaya) that are not matched but only associated cannot be considered a true daisho pair, so why should that change when the blades are mounted?

 

Anyhow, as Jean says, we flogged that subject to a standstill a while back. Dont know that we reached any concensus though.

[kunitaro]

Dear Kieth san,

The Koshirae can be more than one for one blade.

it is like outfit or clothing for the blade.

It can change for occasion.

for formal ware, casual ware. for ceremony etc.

for visiting Castle (登城/Tojo) must be Horn Kashira.

the Tsuba is like tie.

Japanese sword mount is hold by one mekugi (bamboo pin), so, easy to change the fitting

Big Daimyos had Big collections.

There is a lot of collection Brand new condition, some are never been used.

That is called Daimyo collection.

 

(even Iai people today, they have more than one Koshirae, one for practice, one for Tournament or demonstration, many people order Saya more than one same time,)

 

Addition for subject from the other thread,

Samurai(s) could recognize their Rank by the Koshirae.

They don't need to be good in kantei (correcting school or maker), they could recognize the level of quality of fittings, recognizing his rank without asking.

Same as us nowadays, Suits, tie, shoes watch, etc...

we can recognize his position of society and his taste.

 

Dear Peter san,

I am just showing for you to see one of a master pieces.

And This is full Daisho Mount, 2 Kozukas, 2 Kogais, both tsubas have 2 hitsuanas.

And This Daisho is Only Wakizashi has Kaeri-tsuno on Saya.

(not always)

Kojiri is squire end for Dai-to, Round end for Sho-to.

 

PS * Please don't forget that fresh polished blade should NOT put in to old Saya.

The blade with Oil is bad for the Saya, without oil is bad for the blade.

 

And Other Daisho set.

This set has no Kozuka/Kogai

[Baka Gaijin]

Kunitaro san,

 

Thank you for showing such fine Koshirae.

 

I have a question:

 

Was there a definitive position for the knot on sageo when being worn?

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[sanjuro]

Kunitaro san.

 

I am in complete accord with what you say. I have three different koshirae for my iaito. It was a matter of formality or propriety for the occasion that determines the koshirae used. The koshirae you posted was fine indeed, and i would love to own such a fine set. My point however was more concerning the blades themselves. If they are not matched, as in by the same maker, then it is not in a purist sense a daisho. Blades by disparate makers do not in my opinion qualify as daisho.

We have dealers these days who pair unassociated blades and call them a daisho on the basis that they are similar in style or that they have matching koshirae. This is in my view incorrect. A daisho should in reality and to be truly classified as daisho, be by the same maker if in shirasaya and also have matching koshirae if they are mounted.

[kunitaro]

Dear Malcolm san,

Formal or Official Daisho should be black Saya, shakudo-nanako fittings with Black Sageo.

(and Quality shows their rank)

Other occasions, fittings and color of Sageo are more free to chose,

and what kind, the way how they ware, shows their locality.

also, they could buy something different when they visit other province.

However, they dressed themselves fit with their rank without written regulation.

身分相応/Status commensurate was one of important manner for Samurai.

 

Dear Kieth san,

When Daisho become Formal ware for Samurai at Edo period,

a lot of Tachi has shortened to wear as a Katana,

It was for Daisho.

and Most of high ranking Samurais were wearing koto-blade in Edo period. They were not matched blades.

you can have Hizen Tadayoshi katana and wakizashi or a Bizen Nagamitsu Daito and Soshu Sadamune Wakizashi in Daisho mount...

 

What do you think ?

[sanjuro]

Kunitaro san.

 

I think it is not as simple as I would wish it to be.... :D

 

As you say, many daisho were actually assembled from shortened koto tachi and wakizashi by different makers, and then mounted en suite. History and popular usage however has accepted this and my ideal daisho by the same swordsmith is seldom the case except in sets that were made as new in the Edo Period....... This is one reason I have never aspired to owning a daisho. I also think that I shall continue to focus my collecting on my beloved tachi.

[runagmc]

Here's an example of matching blades and mounts,

[Eric H]

Daisho, by its origin it means a „pair of swords“ -big and little-... it was the symbol of the Samurai class. Later on „daisho“ became also to be a synonym for identically mounting i.e. koshirae. Purist collectors nowadays claim that a „true“ daisho consists of the matching koshirae and swords by the same smith with matching date.

 

The 47 Ronin and their Swords

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/ronin.htm

 

some excerpts from Sesko e-book koshirae

 

Eric

[Brian]

The loose (but IMHO, the truest and most sensible) definition of a daisho is a pair of swords that would have been carried together by a Samurai.

Doesn't have to be (and in the past, usually wasn't) by the same maker. Just a matching set of koshirae that show they would have been worn together.

This is how they are papered too I believe.

Darcy did an extensive post about this, but I cannot find it now. Anyone remember where it was?

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Oh my, sorry, it was not my intention to restart this debate, especially as a distraction from such highl quality koshirae posted by Kunitaro san. If you submit matching koshirae to shinsa it will paper as a daisho, regardless of the swords. If you submit swords made as a matched set they will paper as a daisho. A pair of swords not made as a matched set even when made by the same swordsmith will not paper as a daisho. And now back to enjoying images of high quality fittings.

[Brian]

Franco,

I think we are all talking about other stuff right now to distract ourselves from the fact that none of us can afford that set that Kunitaro san showed :lol:

 

Brian

[Jean]

I am not sure Brian, I thought Bill Gates was one of our members

[Brian]

If he is...can I ask for a year end contribution please?

Tight bastard. :lol:

 

Brian

[NihontoEurope]

[attachment=0]kill-bill-gates.jpg[/attachment]

 

/Martin

[sanjuro]

Martin.

 

Easy boy....... If it wasnt for Bill Gates, most of us wouldnt be able to hold this conversation. Lets just spare a thought for which side our cyber bread is buttered on. :D

[Eric H]

Daisho Uchigatana Koshirae Harima Honda Family

Kunitaro san,

An exquisite and important Daisho-Koshirae and as I believe with a documented history. Unfortunately without the blades, and in connection with this topic, were the blades made by the same smith intentionally as a pair or made by different smiths?

 

Eric

[peter]

Hello all,

Now if the answer to your question is known Eric that could be the end of what constitutes a 'true' Dai-Sho,

If it was good enough for a Daimyo who are we to argue.

Peter