Tanto on ebay for viewing...

[Curran]

Rather fond of these yoroi doshi myself.

That gold 2 foil 2 piece habaki alone will cost about 50% of your purchase price to have made these days.

 

For the record, nakago on mine also looked old. Fair number of people tried to argue it was late Muromachi.

[Marius]

I have got the tanto now. I have made some macro pictures, most of them in sunlight. Plus a few pics of the sugata. All for you to enjoy and comment. I have formed my opinion and now, gents...

 

faites vos jeux!

 

http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o61 ... ?start=all

[cabowen]

Photobucket requires registration apparently to view the enlarged versions of the photos...

[Marius]

Chris,

 

do you mean you don't see higher resolution pics?

 

Maybe try:

 

http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o61 ... roi_doshi/

 

and then double-click each pic to see a slightly larger version.

 

I really hate Photobucket with its crappy interface and its strange quirks, and most of all its infantile "Like" button.

 

Anyway, I hope you can see something in those enlarged pics....

[cabowen]

when I double click on the image nothing happens and all I can see are the small images.

[runagmc]

Double clicking on the image enlarged it for me...

 

As for the tanto, it looks like it's been polished quite a bit. If it wasn't for that, I would definitely think

it was Shinshin-to, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe it could be older...

[Brian]

Works for me, and I'm not logged in. Try another browser?

 

Brian

[Marius]

Actually, one click is enough to switch to "high-rez" view. I still dislike Photobucket, the zoom > original size does not always work.

 

I hope you see enough to have an opinion..

[Lee Bray]

I'd say Koto.

The shape shows repeated polishes so possibly Koto but that can be mimicked; the hada does seem very tight from what can be seen so that could say Shinshinto. It also sports a wide hamon, plenty of boshi and kaeri despite its tiredness which could also suggest a Shinshinto copy.

I'm pretty sure I see an umegane on pic 30 - lower edge marked by the carbon pit and top edge breaking through the line of ji-nie.

That makes me go with Koto just because I'd hope Shinshinto steel would not have such a flaw.

If not for the umegane, I'd say Shinshinto...

How's that for hedging your bets?

:D

[Marius]

I'd say Koto.

The shape shows repeated polishes so possibly Koto but that can be mimicked; the hada does seem very tight from what can be seen so that could say Shinshinto. It also sports a wide hamon, plenty of boshi and kaeri despite its tiredness which could also suggest a Shinshinto copy.

:D

 

Lee,

 

I'd say:

 

1. hard to find a shinshinto blade with such a sugata (you can''t see it in the pics, but this tanto is very very narrow)

2. boshi in similar Koto can be substantial: http://www.users.on.net/~coxm/?page=oshigata_sword_k100

3. Question: are there no Koto with very tight ko-itame?

4. Why would anybody mimick repeated polishes? Isn't a healthy tanto more desirable?

5. The patina on the nakago looks exactly like on a papered Oei tanto which is in my collection. Yes, it is possible to patinate the nakago, but producing such an excellent patina would take time and would cost a lot, so that makes no economic sense...

 

Having said that, I must admit that I am still not sure what to think... I lean toward Koto, but that may be because I like Koto, so my opinion doesn't count

[cabowen]

Like I said earlier, you can fake patina, shape, etc., but you can not fake the forging.

 

I have seen my share of sue koto yoroi-doshi and I certainly don't recall seeing one with this type of hada....Doesn't mean it couldn't be, just that the hada on this blade resembles shinshinto work much more than what I would expect in a sue koto yoroi-doshi....

 

Get it to a shinsa team. It is very difficult to make anything more than a guess from photos.

[Marius]

Chris,

 

you are right, photos are not enough to judge a sword. I guess, I'll send it to shinsa and come back with the results, just for the fun of it :-)

 

I agree with you on the hada. It looks shinshinto, it is so tight... Only a shinsa team will be able to tell what this is. I am puzzled by this cluster of nie in the habuchi, the elongated lens-shaped something. Any opinions on that?

[cabowen]

sorry but I am unable to enlarge the photos to get a better look.

[nihonto1001]

I once saw a Yosozaemon Sukesada tanto with very tight, almost undiscernible, hada. It was NBTHK papered and was considered an example of his best work. Interestingly, it was also polished down quite a bit. The Yasuyoshi on my site also has very tight hada and is koto. So yes, you do sometimes see very tight hada in koto works, particularly in tanto.

[Lee Bray]

 

Marius, I've roughly outlined the umegane I refer to. I believe it's an umegane as there is no nie in it, indicating it is different steel added later.

Is that what you refer to as the "elongated lens-shaped something"?

[Jean]

Lee,

 

IMHO, it is rather a fukure

[Lee Bray]

You mean the small carbon pit?

I can see a complete outline of a patch of steel, at least to my eyes.

That pit is on the lower edge of the patch that I see, the upper edge going through the streak of ji-nie, which is why the ji-nie is partially obscured.

At least that's how I interpret it and could be entirely wrong.

[Marius]

Lee, Jean,

 

it is neither sumigane, nor fukure. It is just an irregular spot in an irregular streak of nie. BTW, this streak has nothing to do with the boshi, it is a metallurgical effect that flows out of the boshi towards the hamachi.

 

Here is the pic of what I mean - this lentil-shaped cluster of nie appears directly in the habuchi.

[Marius]

And in the picture here, the nature of those streaks of large nie flowing from the boshi towards the ha/mune-machi becomes apparent. They are pretty brilliant. And so is the lentil-shaped cluster I have showed in my previous post. Sorry for the quality of the last picture...

[Jean]

Mariusz,

 

Lee and myself were dicussing about the carbon pit which for me looked like a small fukure rather than a pit (in the middle of the circule drawn by Lee) and not the nie effect you mentionned.

 

Lee,

 

I did not even noticed on my ipad the patch you mentioned. I have just checked on my main monitor and see what you tried to show on your picture. It is difficult to say without having the sword in hand. On one hand, taking into account the scale of the picture, it may be only a pit and not a fukure, now, on the other hand, all umegane I have seen have , even polished a few times, the borders were well distinct and generally roundish, which is not the case with this one.

[cabowen]

It is an inclusion from forging of steel with a different carbon content than that of the surrounding area. Not quite a fukure, but a kind of flaw.

[Lee Bray]

Jean, you maybe right as a uniformly shaped patch would be a lot easier to apply.

I'm still convinced I see a patch of different steel because of the disruption in the nie at its top edge, though.

Perhaps it is an umegane, perhaps it is a weird piece of steel in the original kawagane that did not harden the same way as it's surrounding steel. If Marius' picture is showing an inclusion of some kind, as Chris suggests, then that's a possibility.

[cabowen]

It looks as if it is within the hamon- you can not put umegane inside the hamon as the steel is too hard and brittle.

[Lee Bray]

In the picture I posted the patch I refer to is above the hamon.

[Marius]

Lee, Chris,

 

each of you talk about a different spot on the blade. And I can assure you, there is no fukure whatsover in this blade, and just one tiny spot of shingane. What was seen as a fukure/shingane is just a swirl in the long streak of nie. It shows (as has been said many times here) how difficult it is to judge from photographs.

[Marius]

This is just a bump... after all that Masamune "discussion" and re-opening of a closed thread, I'd like to ask you kindly to determine what period - koto or shinshinto?

 

here are some new pics:

http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o61 ... shi_tanto/

 

Please read the description of the pictures if interested.

 

Just for the sake of transparency - I am thinking whether I should keep this tanto or sell it. And I lean towards a sale.

 

Many thanks for your kind help

[paulb]

Hi Mariusz,

for what it is worth I am still going to go with Shinshinto. I think it has been well crafted and made to look old and the nakago reasonably patinated. but under the colour the nakago still looks "clean". I think the hada also suggests later work.

Again only opinion and I have often been wrong before

cheers

Paul