sanjuro

Inome or the boar's eye, does not waver from its enemy once the boar has committed to the charge.

Paulb My statement was an observation, and the excercising of my right to free speech. It was not a political statement born of any political hang ups at all. I did not express my opinion of the royal family as a whole but rather of the perceived attitudes of the royal family of that era. However, if you wish to take me to task over my comment, please do so by PMing me, not on a public forum where it is entirely bad form.

I guess just because you are 'so called' royalty, It doesnt necessarily mean that you are either culturally sensitive or even in possession of common sense. The presentation of a rare sword no matter how beautifully mounted would be nothing more to the British royalty than a mere gesture, a gesture that was entirely expected by them as their due. Just another addition to the vast collection of such things that the Royal family has accumulated. What a waste of a sword!!!!!!

I tend to agree that the iron tsuba may have had some significance to the original owner. There is a lot of careful craftsmanship in the cladding of the iron base, that would have been an expensive alternative to making a new tsuba in soft metal. An intriguing piece. I would be very tempted to research its provenance if at all possible.

A somewhat Petulant exit.

So where are we at? Despite the assurance of the original poster that we are not required to arrive at any conclusions, it is inevitable that a discussion will at the very least yield something of that nature, otherwise it is a pointless discussion. For me the following conclusions have been drawn: 1. John Stuart probably knows more about this subject than the rest of us put together. (This is meant in the most complimentary way). 2. Anything that is of apparently bad Japanese taste can be fobbed off as 'made for export'. Or is that just a lack of recognition that the Japanese made tsuba and koshirae to rather decadent and rather ornate victorian English and Dutch taste when paid handsomely to do so? 3. That there is apparently no way to know what was made for export based on quality or fidelity to western or Japanese aesthetics. 4. That Japanese artists prostituted their native art in order to make a buck. 5. That the Edo period, particularly the latter Edo period was frought with examples of freakish and extreme (in Japanese aesthetic terms) artistic expression somewhat tinged by exposure to perceived Western artistic values. So whats new about any of this?

George. In real terms all Katana menuki placement should correspond to a right-handed grip (That is right hand forward of the left hand) on the tsuka. A katana is mounted to be worn on the left side. The placement of kurikata etc on the saya do not deviate from this. It is exceptional to see a sword mounted (as in placement of kurikata etc.) for left handed use. This is not to say that there were no left handed samurai - merely that left handed samurai learned to draw and use the sword right handed. The placement of menuki apparently for a left handed grip may be due to a couple of reasons. One would be a personal preference of a right handed user in order to comply better with the grip. Its not necessarily a rule of thumb that the menuki fits into the hollow of the hand, although most do follow this pattern. A second reason may be that when a sword is remounted, particularly in the Edo period, placement of the menuki is sometimes done with regard to the appearance of the mounted blade as opposed to the functionality of the mounting, this may result in an opposed positioning of the menuki. I cant comment on military mountings, because I simply dont know enough about them.

Alas, he will heed only that which most closely agrees with his own desires.

Reinhard. We have the 'black' and the 'white' of this discussion in terms of examples carefully chosen to illustrate the extremes of your argument. You obviously have an opinion to which you are entitled and have presented the examples that most graphically illustrate that viewpoint. The discussion however remains biased and unbalanced in as much as examples of Hama mono that do not fit these extremes were concerned. There were surely excellent tsuba that were made purely for export that did not comply to some warped interpretation of so-called 'western' preferences. In order to present a balanced discussion these are the examples not represented here which we need to see and to weigh against those already presented. Do you have access to such examples? I would really like to see them. Good discussion though, IMHO.

Not before time......... That should have been his first move, not his latest or last.

The desire to own and use a Nihonto is not uncommon in students of kenjutsu and more commonly students of Iaido. It is an impulse to be resisted and any self respecting teacher would not allow it until you have reached a level of proficiency where you would not represent a danger to yourself your fellow students and to your sensei. Never in kenjutsu is a live blade used except in kata and at the very highest level of proficiency by very senior practitioners. A Nihonto was made to kill and it will do so accidentally as equally efficiently as it will when used seriously. This is the best advice I can give as a qaulified practitioner of both disciplines and also as an ex teacher of both disciplines. By all means buy and cherish a Nihonto. It will inspire you and fascinate you. But please never use it! A sword for tamishigiri is easily obtained as already advised by others, but please do not try to use the weapon without supervision until such time as you have reached a decent level of expertise. A live blade is not a toy, nor is it something with which to indulge in unsupervised experimentation. May your journey to enlightenment in martial arts be filled with wonder and joy, and may you come to the realisation that true swordsmanship lies in the achievement of never needing to draw a blade.

Much of what we are discussing here is concerned with our perception of what is Japanese and what is western in terms of art. What I'm reaching for here is a distinction between the treatment of subject, placement, use of 'white space' etc. That we can judge by. On the one hand we have the distinctly Japanese Aesthetic. On the other, the corruption if I can use the term, of that aesthetic by the Japanese artisan in order to satisfy what he may interpret as a western preference. Such examples would legitimately be open to classification as 'made for export'. Given that some examples are an exploration of a Japanese aesthetic by an artisan, and some are blatant commercial products, how do we draw a line between them? Badly designed and/or executed tsuba were made long before the Japanese became aware of western preferences. Not every tsuba turned out by every tsubako was in 'good Japanese taste', and indeed who is to say what is good bad or indifferent since we all differ in what we like or dont like? Even the ugliest dog will find a loving owner. I'm quite sure the Japanese are not a nation with universally identical good taste. The examples given in this thread are there to illustrate a point and they do it well. There are however many examples that are not so clearly identifiable as Hama-mono as the examples given here. The previous thread with the Hisanori daisho pair featuring the horse and his passage is an example of this. One wonders why, given these examples of tsuba were made for western preferences, do we westerners find them so damned ugly?

Jean. First tsuba or first person? And I tend to agree with you for what my opinion on such things may be worth. I think Grey and Fred have a good point though. The presence of so many in Japan does raise its own question as they have pointed out.

Who is to say they were not? Juyo status does not preclude them from originally being made for export. That status was conferred upon them long after they were made. Likewise, who is to say they were, since they were probably made as art objects rather than to be mounted. Incidentally, I think you meant aesthetics not anaesthetics......

Since any observation made by a Westerner is bound to be subjective at best, this is and will remain the views not of experts but of enthusiasts. May I be so bold as to suggest there are few westerners who have an accurate grasp of Japanese aesthetics, since they have not experienced those aesthetics within the cultural atmosphere of the people that originally described them. To further suppose that we could disect with any accuracy the western influence from the Japanese, is in the light of our ignorance, a little presumptuous. One certainty arises from the introduction of this topic and that is we can say without fear of contradiction that the so called 'namban' style of tsuba and tosogu are almost definately the product of western influence. (albeit that the west was in turn influenced by the elements of Chinese design at the time) Beyond that, any other observation concerning the inherant western influence or otherwise of tsuba supposedly made for export is purely speculative.

Personally I'm not really convinced that the examples shown have any use in firstly the understanding of Japanese aesthetics or secondly any influence they may or may not have had either on Western preferences, or having been influenced by western preferences. Firstly one must define 'western preferences'. Secondly, one must identify the Japanese aesthetic that has been influenced, and last of all proof of any influence must be identified. You can discuss it all you like, but without at least this basis, then talk is pointless and will arrive at no conclusion.

It sold for $690 US on 24 bids....... Now that is depressing.

What I find equally amazing about the sale of this 'oversize letter opener', is the fact that 31 bids were received before arriving at the final inflated selling price.

This thread has raised some interesting points and they bear discussion. To me, a Nihonto is a sword made by a Japanese craftsman in Japan, by hand, using traditional techniques, from native materials. A Japanese style sword made of American materials by an American in America regardless of the techniques used and the craftsman being trained in Japan, is an American sword not a Nihonto. Similarly, a Japanese style Chinese sword made of Chinese materials in China (etc.) is a Chinese sword. Are the lines of definition becoming blurred by the style of a sword regardless of its country of origin and provenance? I realise I may run into difficulties here defining the products of native Japanese craftsmen working in America or China, using local materials. However, for the sake of discussion, may I ask others on this board their views on so called Nihonto made outside of Japan?

Maybe I'm just a natural skeptic, but in reviewing the photos of this blade, there is still that curious marbled damascus look about the hada in some of the pictures. Now why would a Japanese smith produce what is a foreign effect on a Japanese blade, an effect that usually identifies Chinese blades as fakes, when he was trying to produce a sword that was a genuine shinsakuto? 'Made by a Japanese smith in Osaka' rolls easily off the tongue. You can make that claim about any Chinese fake if you are trying to pass it off as the real deal. I'd like to see the Japanese export papers on this one before I was convinced.

Even given the descriptions he has included in his listing, individual photos would really help him sell them. As a bunch they look like a group of gunto swords and there are surely one or two quite desirable swords among them. The good ones if there are any, are just lost among the rest. Not knowing the market in the US, is there a real possibility that someone will come along and just lay down $28k in the hope of getting one or two good swords? Mark. My references in the previous post were tongue-in-cheek. Didn't mean t'upset y'all. :D

O suriage, Rai Kunitoshi ........ It couldn't really be ...... could it? Is it just me, or is the transverse stroke on the upper character (Rai) a bit suspicious?

Doug. Yeah, so much for international relations..... Most of the better class Chinese blades are probably made from steel smelted from Australian iron ore. (And here comes the gratuitous pun)...... Hows that for irony? ....... I could be in trouble from my own government for my previous remark.

C'mon Major tiger........(Peter), Sign the post please. I'm an Aussie too, so dont be shy. You want all these international types thinking we are dumb colonials?

Frankly it beats me as to why he has limited himself to local pickup only. I realise he's from North Carolina and possibly does not know there is actually a world beyond Lafayette county and indeed beyond the shores of North America if he can make such a distinction. Why has he limited his market so drastically? We that inhabit the greater percentage of the planet can only look on and wonder..........