George KN

I watched the video, but I didn't see any evidence apart from his own opinion that the longer type of mei actually differentiated between Emura and his students? Also, how much did that sword sell for?

It's long over due since I realised the insane value of this forum even a few months in to collecting, but I've just paid for gold membership now after seeing this thread Monetisation-wise, I was really surprised that selling things here is available for free members. In fact, as a buyer, it provides a bit more confidence to know that a seller is a gold member since it means at the very least the forum has a card or some other information on the seller which should help discourage fraud. Not sure about monetising translations though, as it might feel then that the users that take the time to do translations then become a financial commodity, and there would be little stopping people from messaging those regular translators directly / going off forum for information Something I've seen a lot of in other niche online communities that may apply here: Additional donation tiers - people can pay more just because they want to support the forum more. Maybe give them a cool badge, but even without perks you may be surprised that some people will pick this option Paying monthly for donations - it may be a barrier to entry that people need to pick 6 or 12 months of membership - I know it's cheaper to pay in a lump sum, but younger people especially are much more acclimatised to regular payments they can turn on or off Branded merch / Secondary sales (someone else mentioned this too) Unsure the NMB logo particularly lends itself at the moment as a brand, but I don't think anyone would mind if the forum began selling some useful essentials like tsuba boxes, sword stands, or microfibre cloths Amazon referral links for relevant books Discount codes/partnerships with certain stores In general though, more regular users = more paid subscribers. From an SEO point of view the Google results the NMB has always been super high in the search list whenever I use collecting terms ("nihonto", "Emura", "Nakago"), it does this really well! But I do wonder whether it isn't so great when a complete novice is looking up "Original Samurai Swords, what do they look like", so a bunch of people may never find us here. We might benefit from a beginner friendly page or two with a proper introduction to the subject, that isn't part of the forum itself, similar-ish to the FAQ page, but which would show up in such search results? Even a completely separate website that addresses these common issues and links specifically to the NMB for further information would help (a bit like the https://japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm but more modern and mobile friendly).

Thank you all! I really do appreciate it, as there does seem little information about what is a "normal" price for them, so the range of examples is super useful. One day I'd very much like to try my hand at making a pair out of copper, or the leather shims, but it's just not going to happen for a while I am surprised though that there doesn't seem to be someone known for making them to order - since tsuka shrink and especially gunto having so many variations of where the chuso clip ana can be, it feels like there would be a business opportunity there at the right price. But admittedly the detailing looks like it would be quite hard to automate efficiently...

(I am especially looking for gunto seppa - these seem even harder to find, especially if you're trying to line up the ana for a chuso clip)

I've recently been buying some seppa for some of my loose fitting blades online, and the thought occurred to me I'm not actually sure how to find or value them properly. So far I completely failed to find reliable UK sources for new seppa - the ones on Amazon or Ebay were really not great. Mostly Chinese made, and after having ordered some they fit very poorly. Even these cost a minimum of about £6 per seppa. You can find what look to be antique seppa on Ebay too, but they have wildly different costs, and are often in very bad shape. The thing is, even if you do buy a half decent old pair, there's no guarantee they will fit your blades! To clarify, I'm not trying to buy any off NMB members, I'm more just curious about how others source and fit them. Is there some secret supplier of custom seppa I'm missing? What should you pay for them? And how do you ensure they fit the blades? At the moment I'm thinking it is just a case of building up a large stash of spare fittings over time... Thanks, George

I bought one of these as my first sword too, thinking it was legitimate. Hurts at first, but if you can bear to keep going there's a whole world of knowledge out there - this forum and it's old threads being one of the best places to learn. After more research, if still want a genuine wartime or older Japanese sword, they do exist under £1k, and you'll feel so much better when you do get one that you know exactly what it is (Nihonto/Type 95/Type 97/Type 98, etc). Please don't be too disheartened

Is this thread really revolving around advising people spending this much on their first purchase?? I mean I know it's an expensive field of interest, and a lot of "good" blades are easily worth that much, but that's a LOT of money for most people...

I agree, likely authentic - but it's not in good shape and the pictures don't even show the other side. Easily could be hiding serious flaws like hagire.

400,000 and 500,000 yen for those swords in the OP? That's twice as much as I've ever spent on a blade! Here's an alternative approach - if you don't have a specific smith, school, or style in mind yet, and are just really itching to get your first Nihonto, why not buy cheap for the first one or two? Like I can't recommend eBay at all, but you do see swords come up at local auctions, or antique markets fairly regularly. It seemingly takes a life-time to properly study Nihonto, but you can definitely learn to how to spot fakes, or differentiate WW2 blades from earlier swords very quickly. (Simply spending a few days scrolling back through old threads on this forum, reading one after another, taught me a huge amount when starting, even if I didn't understand it all) Sure, even with some study, your first sword or two will have plenty of flaws, be out of polish, have a damaged koshirae, or all three. Most will be mumei. Heck, you may even buy a fake, but they aren't going to break the bank if you only spend ~$600 per one. Most important, you will learn something each time, and it quickly forces you to do a lot of research. And resale wise, unless you've bought a fake or one with a fatal flaw, you're unlikely to lose a lot of money. But of course it does depend on what you want - you won't find an in-polish signed Koto work this way. But accidentally buying a few Shinto blades might make you realise Koto is actually what you really want if you simply don't know enough right now to form an opinion.

I was also looking at this one! And also not bidding now - £400+ for a sword with evidence of water damage stuck in it's saya is a risk even I'm not willing to take, but I do hope someone eventually posts what it looks like once removed here, for curiosities sake. It definitely needs a lot of TLC. One other thing that did interest me was the tassel - it looks green: But because of the two colours, I think it might originally have been a company grade tassel. Curious how the colours have bled/or maybe faded in that way though.

While I haven't seen many in civilian fittings (only that thread Bruce mentioned), there are a few on this thread signed on the katana side: And another here: And then a bunch more examples here: https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/emura.htm I don't know why there's such a mix of which side they are signed on when the regular tachi-style military fittings seem to be so common - but maybe it does imply some were originally intended for civilians even if we don't see them as regularly now?

Congrats! And that does look like a really nice blade! With fittings like that I think it would be very hard for anyone to argue it is "just" a weapon

Hmm, I've often wondered about this subject myself. As others have said, unless there is obvious battle damage or provenance, we can never really know what a blade has been used for. However, you can tell a lot about the smith and other craftsman's intention for a blade, which I suppose you could use to help frame a story for your wife? For example I get good vibes from my mumei Shinto katana. It was likely made in a more peaceful era, has an active hamon (suggesting artistic intent), and a nice koshirae with both swallows and ho-ho (phoenix) suggesting to me freedom and rebirth (yes, it is my profile picture): I doubt many people would have too many problems with a sword if it clearly had intentions other than just combat? Wartime blades I'd argue are more neutral, because while they were often forged for WW2 specifically, everyone knew that rifles and artillery were really doing the frontline killing then (the killing of prisoners not withstanding). I mean heck, how much use were they really expecting from the kai gunto whilst on board a ship? So I tend to think of them more as national status symbol rather than just as a killing weapon, although yes, many were used in atrocious war crimes. Now... On the other end of the scale are survivors like this: Shinogi-zukuri, light in your hand, razor sharp, strong sori, real age to it. This thing has been made to cut flesh like butter. It might help if it had a koshirae, but at the moment nothing about it suggests artistic intent, and it has seen many polishes because of how thin it is compared to the nakago. Whether that has been simply because of its age, or because it's been used and consequently needing repolishing, I don't know. But it's safe to say even I'm not a big fan of it - I keep thinking it's going to try and take one of my fingers if I'm not careful when handling. So that sort of thing you might struggle with the framing... (Sorry guys about wheeling out the same pics I've put on other threads, but thought it was a relevant example). Maybe some pics or further details of the sword you're waiting for @MEENag might help us suggest a way you could sell it to those that are a bit nervous of having them in the house? (Maybe the sword has even arrived by now?)

As others have noted, the fittings seem incorrect for a standard wartime blade. The shininess of the copper parts concerns me, as does the odd coating of white mould/powder? in places you wouldn't normally expect. It is odd it seems to have ray skin on the tsuka though, which is unusual for fakes, and the leather on the saya seems to have shrunk as you would expect of a period piece too. The blade is more interesting, because the rust suggests a bit more age, it has what looks to be a hamon-like pattern, as well as a yokote. However the hamachi and munemachi don't line up as expected, and the end of the nakago seems too angular. The ana also looks to be rather small? So on balance I'd agree with others and say this wasn't made in a traditional manner. However, I wouldn't like to guess its age. Currently thinking its a 50/50 chance of it being a period island sword vs a more recent fake. (I'm not an expert though, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt)

Alternative learning process- buy the cheapest rust free blade you can find with a hamon that you like, at the dodgiest auction you can find with no seller information, and then try and find out everything you can from it (Measurements/Flaws/Mei/School). So long as it isn't fake (feel free to ask here before purchase!), I've found it a great way to learn whilst remaining motivated. Even a completely worn nihonto has resale value, and it's good to learn sword care and handling well before risking it all on a single high value one.

Hi Bruno, I like the design! It's definitely been mounted, and looks to have some real age to it (the way the rust is peeling on the inside of the nakago ana heavily suggests this). If it is a real hand-forged piece though (I can't see any seams which is good), I still think someone may have messed around with it. There's clear evidence of rust and pitting all over, but it all looks the same colour as the surface: Similarly, the copper in the nakago ana is glossy? I've never seen this before. It feels like someone may have applied a layer or two of something. One to darken any rust spots (but not actually remove the flaking rust like they should have), and a second to make it look so shiny? (Black shoe polish perhaps?) I think combined, extra layers like this would reduce the level of detail we can see (especially in the mei), giving a similar impression to it being cast. At 30 euro's though I'd say you did really well! (FYI I am a tsuba novice - but I have worked on some removing heavy rust before)

Wow, I really like that design! So simple yet so sombre. The rivets do strongly suggest it represents metalwork rather than anything else, but I find it particularly interesting that each corner overlaps the next one - reminiscent of it being endless? It definitely could be a direct representation of a strong box/cage/prison. But part of me thinks it could be more nuanced - a representation of endless mental restraint, or constraint against something.

I've been mulling over the dots... It doesn't seem like something you'd do for fittings, especially since the paint and numbers are used for that on gunto instead. It feels like something only someone actively working with the steel would add, like the polisher or the smith themselves. Perhaps it's a reference to how many times the nakago has been adjusted? (Interesting your example has two ana) Or just a way the smith or polisher was tracking blades made at the same time? (This would help explain the fairly low number of dots on blades I've seen) Not sure about the Koto one though! If that was off a suriage blade where the mune was moved it would indeed heavily suggest something a polisher added rather than the original smith... Maybe even a mei of sorts with that pattern of five.

Hi all, I recently bought a 1943 kai gunto from an auction that is missing it's ashi/hangers on the saya. I know it used to have two, and that they were the kind that had screws, as the holes are still there in the saya: Rather foolishly, I bought a pair of ashi from ebay before the sword arrived, but they are the type without the screws: They are great, but just the wrong type (and a little too gold for my rather beaten-up saya) - so if anyone wants to trade one set of ashi for another, please let me know! Otherwise, happy to buy them separately if you happen to have a pair with screw holes in the right place. Thanks, George

So... I was cleaning the tsuka of this kai gunto today, trying to get rid of some of the mould. To do so I needed to remove the knot loop and the kabuto-gane (I've done this before with the shin gunto and the removal process was just the same). However underneath it was a bit of paper. I initially assumed it was just to help with the fit - but out of curiosity I took it out and unfolded it, and it does have some writing on... There wasn't any other writing on the other sides. Is it just a scrap piece of paper do you think, or something else? For now I've just stuck it back where I found it. Thanks again, George

In all seriousness, this is getting a bit out of hand. Although there are the age and tradition defences, I don't know how I could actually prove to a police officer my mumei shinto and koto blades were made when I say they are if they ever decided to seize them, nor how to prove in writing they are "traditionally" made. I do wonder whether long term setting up our collections as online museums might be possible to help skirt around these rules... Might even have tax benefits? Not sure what sort of paperwork would be involved though.

Thanks Bruce Unlike that time I bought a gunto without seeing a tang and it turning out to be an Emura, this one is much less of a home run, but I'm learning a lot all the same. If anyone has a pair of kai gunto ashi that have holes for screws they're willing to sell or trade for ones without a hole, please pm me! (I will make an ad in the wanted section for this too)

I believe it is the large Seki stamp - it is 5mm tall by 4mm wide. Apart from the painted sub assembly number, the only other marking is that single dot at the bottom of the nakago. Thanks for confirming the sub assembly number, it definitely matches all the other roman numerals on the fittings then! I've uploaded more pics of the blade and fittings on the original military thread here if you're interested and haven't seen it already: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51690-how-to-valuerank-showato This is really interesting thanks! There are two other gunto Masayuki I didn't mention in Sesko, but he lists them using different characters to mine: MASAYUKI (正之), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Saitama – “Masayuki” (正之), family name Ōzawa (小澤), he worked as guntō smith, ryōkō no retsu (Akihide) MASAYUKI (正幸), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Aichi – “Masayuki” (正幸), family name Ōzawa (小沢), he worked as guntō smith, ryōkō no retsu (Akihide) And there are also two other recent threads I've found with Masayuki guntos: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50546-translation-mei-tang-help-wanted/ https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/41159-new-sword-please-look/ Unsure if that's at all helpful, but there does seem to be quite a few of them floating around!

Apart from the missing ashi (which will be a pain to replace since they are the kind that need screws), the other two big issues with it is the saya skin is splitting along its entire length (hopefully this may be fixable?): And that the blade is very out of polish: Thankfully it's all surface rust as far as I can tell, but it is a pain the auction wasn't able to show this all in more detail *before* I bought the darned thing. Now I know why it was so cheap for a kai gunto! I think I may have instead ended up with a battered showato in battered fittings instead of listening to this sound advice Oh well - hopefully I'll be able to at least stabilise the rust with oil and uchiko. On the bright side, it is nice to finally be able to hold and study a kai gunto, as well as a showato for the first time

Ok, I'm home now, and finally been able to take a proper look at the kai gunto. No hagire I think, but it's definitely out of polish... Jan was kind enough to provide me with the translations for the mei here: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51770-kai-gunto-mei 濃州関住正行作 = Nōshū Seki-jū Masayuki saku 昭和十八年 = Shōwa 18 (1943 CE) Although missing it's ashi and mekugi peg, all the other fittings have the same 1,1,5,3 numbers, which leads me to believe these are also the numbers painted in brown on the nakago (please correct me if I'm wrong though): The saya liner is numbered 1153 inside, and the tsuka has it written on it too: Both the tsuba and the large kai gunto seppa are also numbered with the roman numerals (yes, they are upside down, but the numbers are this way up for some reason): The habaki is also numbered, but using scratches instead: It all feels genuine, but the casting bubbles are fairly obvious on the tsuba, and even the inside of the habaki again looks cast. And considering the 1943 date, I'm guessing this is an example of the decline in the quality of production due to resource shortages. Out of interest, does anyone know what the highest numbered kai gunto is?