Matsunoki

Hello Michael Thank you for your comprehensive reply. For sure I am one of the older grumpier less energetic ones….I understand that very well! Things have certainly changed in many ways since the days of my first collecting adventures. Yes technology has often replaced face to face and has undoubtedly damaged the Arms Fairs (I haven’t been for ages). I have bought swords from Japan but I don’t like it! Buying a sword when all you can see is a strong hadori polish fills me with unease….but I accept that’s how it is now. We must just ask more questions and hope for accurate answers….and then hope it actually gets here! Anyway no point debating….that’s how it is. I disagree with the statement regarding the reasons for not facilitating “for sale” or advertising. Allowing this to happen or acting as facilitator but not actually getting involved would not make the Token “commercial”. But…..that’s how it is. Regarding Members selling to one another….I have no idea who the members are or where they are. Yes if I came to a meeting I would meet a few but the logistics of travel make this exceptionally unappealing. That brings me on to the topic of inter-member contact……I bet I’m not alone …..Paz was mentioning feeling lonely in his hobby. If we do nothing else can we not get our members in touch with one another….provided they want to? Again do we need to set something up if this Forum has a club facility built in? I look with envy at our American (and other) friends…..the discussions and contacts within this Forum….. I fully appreciate that a sword “event” is a non-starter for all the reasons we have both highlighted. Given the lack of volunteers and active participants a solution that requires little such resource (this Forum??) is desirable…but that brings us back to the lack of active participation………please don’t expect me to sort out anything vaguely technical…..but I will try to write something interesting for the journal. I’m sure I can entertain some people and doubtless upset others🙂🙂🙂 Thank you again for your time replying. kind regards. Colin

Sorry baba….you’ve lost me mate! Am I losing the game or the plot?…..or both?

Brian please see my point 6 below. Hi Paul….blimey time flies does it not? It was a superb event but as you say, difficult to repeat now financially and with the sparse volunteer resources not to mention sponsorship etc. I’ve joined the UKToken because I want to support it - I believe this organisation is essential on many fronts….leading, teaching, sharing etc and also because we are moving forwards into an ever increasing climate of legislation regarding what is seen as offensive weapon ownership etc However despite the successful efforts you mention regarding regional meetings I do believe other opportunities may exist to increase membership, inter-member contact and communication and funding…..not to mention learning. Just a couple of suggestions which I have floated already and where I can’t see anything apart from benefits to both the Society and its members. I thus come back to them and would like to know the reasons why they are held back. This is in no way a criticism of anyone or of the considerable efforts being put in by the same few people (as usual…..it’s always the same folk doing the spadework) 1. Allow advertising and “for sales” in the Journal 2. Consider publishing a separate “for sale” list more frequently than the journal 3. Officially and visibly widen the current Token mission statement to include Gendai and Shinsakuto. Maybe even military swords. The interest is huge in these fields and I do not understand the need to specifically focus on antiques swords. Whether we like it or not that does still sound a bit elitist? 4. Maybe have a table at the Birmingham Arms Fair or London Arms Fair to both try and attract new members and to allow members to offer swords for sale or trade for a fee 5. Allow members to access a list of other willing members giving basic contact details to facilitate discussions/interaction etc. As I mentioned to you, I just spent a fantastic day with a fellow member and I’m sure other members would derive similar pleasures from such 121 contacts in the absence of being able to attend official meetings. 6. Open a discussion with Brian on this forum. He recently muted the possibility of using the “Club” facility to in effect set up specific closed sub-forums. Could the Token benefit from the superb opportunities for communication that this forum allows? By all means take this discussion off this Forum…..although I would love to know how many other members are “hiding” on here! Get involved ……it’s fun! (Well, mostly!) All the best Colin

Going back many many years I recall an event organised by the UK Token at the Swallow Hotel in London. I reckon at least 35 years ago. It was I guess similar to the many USA sword shows that I envy. I vividly remember a large room full of tables with swords for sale…..by dealers and collectors. Swords were “on show” as were fittings and armour. I believe there were lectures and demos as well…..but I was too preoccupied with the “for sale” room! It was a massive success I believe….but of course took much organising. I’m not sure if such an event could be staged now for many disparate reasons…..resources, enthusiasm etc but I do wonder if our Token Society could include a “for sale” section in its journals which might generate extra income which might fund other activities and generate a hell of a lot more interest and contact/interaction between members, especially those living in far flung wastelands (like me). Lets be honest, nothing gets us going as much as the opportunity to actually buy something….if we are speaking the truth. Also focusing on whether to buy or not also makes us study and research. At that event something made me smile. A dealer said to me something like “what the hell do I know, a Kabuto I just sold for £2k just resold for £6k”. We all love a bargain don’t we🙂? Im sure this has been kicked around before…apologies for resurrecting it. All the best Colin

Surprised no one has mentioned that (imvho) it also depends heavily on how good the polisher was. It is he after all that puts the final edge on the hamon….unless the smith himself did it?

Hi Paz like you I am a token member but sadly nearly twice your age! what follows are simply my views and opinions which I realise and accept don’t count for much Your question is a simple one but yet it goes to the very heart of enjoying this subject ie “what am I actually looking at?”, “what can I see?”, “what is there that I can’t see?” and more worryingly “what is being concealed?” Important to remember that the smith will determine what the hamon is and the activity within it. It is the polisher that will determine what we can (easily) see. A trained and time served polisher is a mixture of sheer genius and magician. They can take a grey steel bar with scratches and chips and transform it into a lovely sword. However as in Star Wars, there is a dark side where many serious flaws can be hidden…..often driven by ££££. Your sword was in sashikomi polish, an “older traditional style” where largely the actual hamon is gently enhanced to enable all its activities to be easily seen. In appearance it is “softer”, more subtle but imo beautiful. That could be the simple reason your hamon did not leap off the blade at you. The fashion nowadays (which I personally struggle with and don’t understand) is the keisho/Hadori style where one of the final polishing stages involves using a rougher stone to impart the “white” effect on the hamon thus creating a dramatic clash between the colour of hamon and the ji. However it can make it damned difficult to see what the hamon actually is. You are looking at the polishers “interpretation of the actual hamon”……which could vary dramatically from what the actual hamon really is. Many people prefer this drama but it sure adds to the difficulties when viewing a blade. This technique can be used to create the illusion of a hamon which has dropped off the blade, also to create the illusion of a boshi when it shoots straight off the end and even to conceal hagiri and other flaws. When you are looking at many images both on this forum and on Japanese dealers sites you are usually looking at a polishing effect which tells us very little about the hamon and other tempering activities. It is then necessary to hold the blade in suitable lighting and peer at it whilst twisting and turning it in the hope that you can see what is underneath ie see what the smith created. You can gather I’m not a fan!……but that’s the current trend! So, my advice, don’t judge a blade based on the polish….the polish can be gentle or harsh, appropriate or inappropriate, well done or less so. Look through what you first see to see what is really there and if you can’t see what is really there…walk away. Here is a link to a super site, I recommend you read everything on it. https://nihontoantiques.com/Japanese-art-sword-restoration/polishing-techniques/ Enjoy your journey. All the best. Colin

Tiger not hiding in bamboo as usual? Nice tsuba though.

Thanks Ray. Interesting and somewhat shocking in some examples.

Hi Ray I find what you say very interesting. I had no idea such things would still be done today. It’s a bit shocking. I wonder what most members would rather have …..the compromised ubu piece or the “modified version”…with or without the separate original nakago? Where is this being done…Japan or elsewhere? (Obviously in Japan for those with registration problems) Best. Colin.

Another offensive presumption from Jacques. Please excuse me but for over 30 years I dealt in some of the finest Japanese metalwork ever made…..Kano Natsuo. Ozeki, Yamada Motonobu ……….etc etc ( with the worlds top dealers) and my first collection had swords that I try not to remember because it is so painful. (Back then sword knowledge and Information in the UK was very sparse) Sorry if I sound egotistical but I do at least know art and craftmanship and I deeply resent some twit who doesn’t know me publicly telling me I don’t. I do NOT have the necessary knowledge to kantei blades….that’s why I ask for help….and why I offer help if it is sometimes within my sphere of knowledge Dealing with both the people and art of Japan has taught me respect and humility (apart from the above statement!!…sorry!) and the vast majority of people that I’ve encountered on that journey behaved in a similar manner. But there is always one isn’t there?

The why don’t you mind your own damned business if pieces like this don’t interest you? ……and may I remind you what you said when I first posted this sword and compare to what you say now. which is it?

Hi Alex I did actually post this sword on the Forum….it’s an interesting read….lots of “poor” blade images etc -

I wasn’t going to bother but Jacques position, assertions and statements on this is becoming a bit crazy. Firstly on the topic of Nihonto it is virtually impossible to “prove” anything so saying “prove it” is like behaving like a child in the playground. I will actually explain to Jacques why in my “ignorant zero knowledge” state (his words not mine) I believe he is totally wrong. Frankly arguing with two very experienced collectors who have had the sword in hand (that doesn’t include me) just on the basis of my poor photos seems to go against everything that he purports to believe in. This sword was bought by a collector many years (over 30) ago in the USA at a sword event and has been in his collection until I acquired it fairly recently. He had assembled a koshirae for it as it was allegedly originally in wrecked military mounts. Fair bet it was a vet bring back. It is my opinion that this Koto (most likely Nanbokucho) blade was adapted post Meiji restoration for a Kyu gunto mounting which was very common at the time. That very often meant that the nakago gets heavily reworked including shaving both sides of the whole nakago (hence it looks thin) and punching/ drilling more mekugi ana…often quite accompanied by a rather rough suriage crudely and quickly done. There are many similar examples scattered across this forum. It is common to see quite nice swords with wrecked nakago as a consequence. It would be at that time that the hasty yasurimei were re-filed all over……to improve the internals of the tsuka gripping the nakago. But it didn’t stop there. It has DEFINITELY had the machi moved up again later as there are clear bright file marks on both the mune and ha edges of the nakago hence the pronounced machi. The yasurimei were then extended up the nakago again but done even more carelessly? You can see a distinct difference. I believe this was done to remount it in WW2 koshirae ie type 98 I think they are termed. That would probably have required a longer nakago for a secure mounting…..hence the machi-okuri. The mekugi- ana are of different sizes ….some definitely punched (they have a taper) and some maybe drilled. The hamon clearly continues unaltered into the nakago but disappears into the rough yasurimei. None of this is unusual, many swords went through some rough treatment as they progressed through various post Meiji mountings. I do not believe ANY of the nakago is original If anything that I have just said is implausible, unlikely or just plain stupid please correct me. All the best folks. Colin

Which bit of “game over” didn’t you understand?

My opinion doesn’t count in your eyes. Game over.

Thank you John. It was a pleasure to show you the sword. all the best Colin

You need some spectacles mate and a better memory. The sword had definitely been shortened recently…..you have heard of World War 2 haven’t you?..so hamachi tells us nothing. The nakago has been greatly reduced and reworked…it tells us nothing except that it is sad nakago now. You totally ignored my request to tell me the features of the blade that made it 20thC when others all thought Koto, probably (late) Nanbokucho having had the sword in hand as well as images. Of course the world is wrong and Jacques is right yes?

Hi Paz could be either. I’ve had Royal Mail and Parcelforce from USA stick the usps tracking number into parcelforce tracking…..it may pick it up and sometimes gives you the UK version. It’s a bit hit and miss though ive also used this “universal tracking site” that sometimes helps and may give you the uk handler….also hit and miss!! https://parcelsapp.com/en/tracking/Rh002822494us Good luck…..nerves of steel needed colin

……so, all the scientists (like you) who studied the moon and all the planets you mention for many many years well before we actually got to any of them were not studying at all? What were they doing? Knitting? My argument is not a straw man…..it is fact (you like facts)……you can study something without being there or holding it. ….and yet you were perfectly happy to trash my possible Nanbokucho sword without holding it in your hands but using only my poor images. I believe 20th century was your call. Based on that it is difficult to believe that you know that much at all. Brian and Peter ……sorry for being so far off topic…..please don’t ban me.

Perfect. Brilliant idea. Just like some of the old collections….Tomkinson etc.

We don’t know anything about it because we can’t see it……but we can see Nihonto….in images and in hand. Your argument is invalid. That doesn’t stop you discussing the subject does it? So why insult others (as you did me) who also lack “expertise”? …..see above……if your ignorance is greater than your knowledge does that mean what you say is worthless? A teacher does not have to sit next to you physically or on a 121 basis for us to learn something. This forum has many very helpful and kind “teachers” who sacrifice their time to share their knowledge and opinions in a helpful and constructive way. And you can study for a lifetime……but on the subject of Nihonto, so much of it will always remain a matter of opinion, albeit some opinions are worth more than others.

Morning Ian I had this problem on my Toshiba laptop. I had installed a wireless mouse and after a time I got the jumping around into existing text issue. I was told it was a “conflict” between the wireless mouse and the laptop touchpad. To resolve it I was told to press the Fn key and F9 simultaneously and it stopped it for that session. Sometimes I had to hold down the Fn key and press F9 twice quickly. That did the trick but the problem has never gone away…..I have to do it every time I use that laptop. Dammed annoying. Good luck!

Hi again Paul I think there are several reasons for this. I’m not sure what the age profile of the UK Token is……but I bet it’s slanted towards the “mature“ members? This in itself is a factor maybe? I have just joined the Token, not because I will attend meetings regularly but because I want to support the organisation and the efforts it is making. Organising anything can be a thankless task in the face of what seems like member apathy. However, I think a massive reason for non attendance in the UK is the potential problems we may encounter if, for whatever reason, we encounter our law enforcement officers whilst carrying or transporting a sword….especially a Samurai sword. Being arrested is a real possibility when our police don’t even know or understand the law that they are supposed to uphold. Yes we can show them our membership card etc but it’s still an unpleasant potential experience. Plus many of us live in the middle of nowhere….like I do….which brings its own logistical problems. Another possibility is that UK Token Society is for “antique” Japanese swords which seems to exclude gendaito, all military swords and Shinsakuto. All 3 of those categories are hot topics now…..would their inclusion swell membership and attendance? On this forum the interest in military etc is massive….and that includes me. Just a few ramblings. all the best Colin

I think it also depends on why we collect and what “study” actually means. I collect because I “enjoy” owning and examining these lethally fascinating objects. Not just the blade but the complete sword and the history that accompanies it….(providing koshirae are not modern or tampered with). I will never achieve the level of detailed expertise that many on this forum have…..but I don’t want to. I know a good blade from a bad one, nice fittings from modest ones and that’s good enough for my old brain. Blades are such a complex subject much of it is a matter of opinion anyway. It is nice to have expert opinions on a piece…..that’s why I’m here…..that’s why I post my modest items……for opinions and others enjoyment (hopefully!) Group meetings bring difficulties…..often people decide they simply “can’t be bothered”….(that’s me for sure)…or they feel left out, or time limits what can be achieved….lots of problems can arise to put us off. One to one discussions are usually more enjoyable in my experience. There are many ways to increase knowledge nowadays…..internet etc etc…..pick those that you ENJOY …….and Jacques…..you can study the moon without going there, you can study swords without going to Japan.