Matsunoki

Michael, thanks for the invite but having had a stand at the last 7 Birmingham Arms Fairs I have met a wide assortment of other collectors and dealers including many members of the Token etc. Those encounters and lively discussions plus the sales they have generated have given me a perspective on the current UK market and to an extent the issues that exist within it. Of course for those of you that visit Japan and collect at a higher level the perspective will be very different. Also, as I am no longer collecting or owning swords I have not renewed my Token membership.There is no malice in that I assure you and I wish the Token and all other enthusiasts great enjoyment and happiness within this unique “hobby”. I am now moving on to sell my gun collection, that might not be so easy.

Michael, you will see from my earlier comments that I fully understand and acknowledge the massive changes that have occurred within this market in the last 20 odd years. Having sold 58 swords in the last 2 years without going anywhere near an auction house I assure you I am in the real world with the massive caveat that that is within the insular and now somewhat isolated confines of the UK market. My swords were not stellar Juyo upwards items but mostly within the £2-10 k bracket which from what I see represents the “normal” UK market. This statement puzzles me. What about the huge US market and the smaller but active ones in Europe, Australia etc? All the swords shows in the US etc…..Or are we talking here (again?) about the very pinnacle of swords ie Juyo upwards? So again are we referring to the very top end? Why is that false methodology? The hole market is indeed global but within that the geographical variations are enormous driven by supply/demand balances, economic/tax issues, shipping issues, market practices and customs etc They operate very differently and thus yield different results Again I’m puzzled…..the UK sources very little from Japan and I would venture to suggest that other markets are sourcing less from Japan…..it would be good to hear from some US dealers and collectors on that point. Or are we referring to top end items again? Please don’t misinterpret me……the OP was asking about the “market” and I interpreted that to mean the whole market from top to bottom. Also I totally respect the enormous knowledge that those of you who collect higher end swords possess. Personally that has never been my objective but I take my hat of to those that have reached those dizzy heights. But please remember there is a huge market active below that.

Sorry Michael but I don’t think I overlook facts. Auction results are facts. What happens afterwards is unproven and much or the damage is already done. I am not saying that auction houses represent the whole market but they are a factor……a highly visible one. I was an auction house consultant for many years (not for swords!) This whole discussion seems to focus purely on top level blades …….i suspect but cannot prove that they represent only a modest slice of the total market.

Whilst that may be financially true (to an extent) for the auction house it does their image/reputation no good at all to have high unsold rates and they are very conscious of that. That is why they try to depress estimates and reserves at every opportunity. High “unsolds” makes for very nervous department employees. Low estimates and reserves makes for very nervous vendors……selling one or two high profile Lots for serious money can catch the eye and make the headlines but the undercurrent can be a totally different story for both parties. From the vendors point of view it isn’t exactly wonderful either because he is left with a “significant” number of swords that have failed on the open market and although the star items have sold, his unsold items now have the unwanted provenance of having been rejected by the open market in a very high profile way. In such a small niche market that will have been noted by all interested parties ……..and then what?

Hmmm…whistles do have large openings…see below. . Wonder if the smaller holes vary the pitch/tone/note like a flute? Pure guesswork though!

Never seen one in 40+ years. Shape would suggest stag antler and my guess would also be whistle. Possibly a hawking whistle?

Sadly there is nothing we can do. All the major auction houses have “bean counters” deciding what to put effort into and what not to. Once upon a time it was different when specialist departments employed genuinely knowledgeable people who were allowed to do the job vaguely properly. Not so now. Minor departments (eg a Japanese Art) are either closed, moved geographically or tacked on to a wider Dept eg “Asian Art”. The potential comparatively low £return from such niche markets is an irritant to be tolerated rather than developed…..and I guess from a financial perspective (the only one that matters to them) - that’s fair enough. I don’t think anyone on here is naive enough to think that major auction houses are a complete guide to the market but then neither are top end dealers selling top end swords to rich people who don’t care what the price is and don’t know what they are actually buying. Both can cause definite distortions but both are reality……that is what is actually happening. You could argue that auction results are a better reflection of the “everyday” marketplace ie what people are prepared to actually pay for something in open competition with others.

It would be usual for the descriptions to be within a printed catalogue and in the online sale catalogue. Auctioneers rarely do description cards to display with the Lots. Did you see the catalogue?

Agreed! For any market to exist or to survive or to grow there is really only one critical factor……demand. There must be a demand for that product and that demand can vary drastically especially at different price points and in the case of swords, also geographically. So, where is the current demand for swords? Increasing, static or declining and at what price points? What current factors drive that demand?….and are they likely to change…and how, and why? Demand can be encouraged and manipulated to some extent but ultimately people must want it…….whatever “it” is. Right now the transparency that does exist in the “open market” most easily visible via auctions (and even sales on this forum) would suggest the market is over supplied, thus depressed - but as usual there are exceptions. Anything sensibly priced stands a chance, anything over valued stands little chance. Better quality sensibly priced is more likely to sell. What happens behind closed doors is anyone’s guess and is likely to remain so. As Brian has said, the internet has had a drastic impact on the sword market. It has increased product choice and visibility and has thus increased competition between dealers. It has enabled buyers to easily access far more of the “product” than ever before, but has not necessarily increased demand. Static demand coupled with over supply is bad news. Reducing demand coupled with over supply is extremely bad news for market performance. It would be great to have some dealer input…….

I don’t want an argument but this is not true when dealing with clients that are perfectly happy and well prepared to pay a premium for exclusive private buying opportunities. Also many dealers do not wish it known that they sold “sword X” to “customer Y” for “$Z” Not everyone wants exposure to the limelight. It’s the same in any high value commodity market. The art market operates in a very similar way. Imagine you are a dealer with many high net worth private clients…….the problems that could occur when your clients find out what you have sold to their rivals etc. You stand to lose your best customers. Transparency can work negatively as well as positively……it can depress a market if the “prices” start to fall - because there is no guarantee that sword prices will rise especially in this world. We have seen a few very decent collections hit the open market in the last year or two with pretty gruesome results……high percentage of unsold….likely caused by vendors expectations. And, what effects of age demographics will we see……will younger collectors be interested (or able) when these high value swords come onto an open market? Or will they prefer a new Porsche? It’s a complex set of circumstances.

Lots of impressive talk about high end rare and expensive swords but they represent only a numerically very small part of the far wider market. Are we talking about the whole market or a very small exclusive enclave? ….and do the same factors exist across the wider market? ….. and which sectors should most of us be concerned with? The UK has been awash with swords in auctions recently with very poor mixed results……with more still to come. Why is this?

All markets have to operate in the pertaining real world circumstances and the past is usually not a guide to the future…..quite the opposite in fact. So we look at our world and what do we see…..serious actual conflicts, serious potential conflicts, serious economic problems/conflicts/extremes, incompetence of governments etc etc In times such as this will Japanese swords be viewed as an economic safe haven? This is a seriously obscure small market that as said above requires years and years of learning to become even vaguely knowledgeable. Why is gold soaring? What are todays embryonic collectors likely to jump into? The past will not decide what happens, we need to look ahead, not back. Hmmmm…..

@Tyler stone ….compare yours to this genuine example of the same subject by Okatori from the Kyoto school. This one sold at Bonhams for over £6000 nine years ago. The difference in subtlety and carving quality should be apparent. I hope you did not pay a lot for these ……they are next to worthless. Were you misled by a dealer?…because I’d be happy to try and help you get your money back.

Sorry, 100% fake. I’ve been into netsuke for 40 years as dealer and collector….sad to say the market is flooded with these pieces. The hot needle test will only tell you if it’s resin, it won’t tell you anything else. Many of these fakes are carved in ivory and bone.

Wish these were in the UK. Can’t trust our customs rabble, they’ll charge another 20%. Lovely set.

Tyler, sorry but this is an imitation probably made in China. Modern work. The signature is there to deceive.

Tyler, sorry to tell you that the ones in your images are not genuine netsuke…..they are all later imitations of virtually zero quality in terms of Japanese artistry and carving. Probably not even “made” in Japan.

Gold will electroplate onto silver and can also be bonded with heat I think. It is called silver gilt in jewellery and often carries silver hallmarks (in Europe etc). Mercurial gilding also works I think. It wears very quickly though and the silver can oxidise through the gilding.

Thanks for the mention @Lewis B….but….Apologies, I’ve sold my whole sword collection and will only have a few tsuba on offer plus the first emerging pieces from my gun collection. There will be a few regulars and I think a couple of other NMB members are going to have a table so should be things to enjoy and hopefully buy! @oldcodger…..come and say hello! Middle hall rear wall.

There are a couple of dodgy tsuba in this sale but most of the flashy stuff looks correct for Bakumatsu or Meiji. A few are outstanding examples of metalwork. These tsuba obviously appeal to a totally different customer base and they represent a different time in Japan. Many were made as artworks and never intended for mounting. The customer base were wealthy gaijin, merchants and the few image conscious Samurai that could afford such things. Some subjects are avidly collected now….anything Yokai, Bakemono, Oni, Monkey, Snake etc plus of course anything of the highest quality zogan. I think we will see some crazy prices. They are not likely to appeal to the purist iron tsuba collector base🙂

Forget the mei, this tsuba looks fake.

When overcleaned shakudo does look very much like copper. The blue/black patina is purely an oxide on the surface.

Simple……leave it.

The Japanese are experts in finding a quick way to create the impression of quality work especially during Meiji when the demand for their true high quality work (metalwork, tsuba, kozuka etc) boomed. Imo these are Meiji mass produced tsuba aimed squarely at the gaijin of the day (and later) who could not tell the difference. Any that are found actually mounted have most probably been mounted long after Samurai days….again to enhance the “flashiness” of a sword. We encounter exactly the same issues with other metalwork art where some short cuts quickly became so convincing that they still fool “experts”. A great example is Miyabe Atsuyoshi using shiremono pressings with clever patination to mimic true takazogan often of great apparent complexity but taking a fraction of the time. Such pieces still go through major auction houses at huge prices ……so no need to feel too bad about falling for a fake tsuba.

There is a lot of skill involved in the making of that one. Never encountered ceramic netsuke and maybe it isn’t quite 18thC Kyoto but it’s quite rare I suspect. As for a dealer putting the price up….very dishonourable! Golden rule…if you know more that the seller, keep quiet🙂