Matsunoki

Charlie, thank you so much for your time and comments. You obviously “know your stuff” but it would help no end (for the many of us that cannot read Kanji) if you actually used English throughout. Newbies and the “kanji blind” (like me) stand no chance of fully grasping the information and opinions that you kindly provide. No offence intended, and thanks again.

“Museum quality” means absolutely nothing. Knowledge determines the understanding of quality, not what some museum displays show us…..stuff they were left eons ago that they neither understand nor try to understand. Of course, there are some specialist exceptions but mostly I have little time for museums. Fine quality things are safest in collectors hands.

Lewis, all of my comments above were about my blade…..please don’t think I was casting doubt or even expressing an opinion on yours! I hope yours gets the desired result!

Luca, many thanks for looking and commenting. To be honest….i don’t know where to look for a referenced authenticated mei. However a quick dip into it suggests that this artists mei varies quite a lot (possibly over a very long career) and I have found several other pieces that compare very favourably (mei and workmanship)…..but not officially authenticated. …..but really I don’t mind either way….artistry and quality are pleasing in my humble opinion. Whoever made it knew his stuff🙂 If anyone has easy access to anything relevant that would shed some light I’d be grateful!

@Lewis B Well Lewis, I’ve read through your linked thread twice and I think I need medication! Early on in my collecting (40+years ago) I took a decision not to chase down the rabbit holes of mei and their authentication simply because I realised I would never attain the level of knowledge that I would like and would end up confused and frustrated. Also I have huge trouble with remembering any names so I just focussed on collecting complete swords with Edo untouched koshirae that I found attractive and of what I deemed decent quality. So when faced with this challenge I happily accept that I stand no chance whatsoever! If I skip past the multiple layers of widely varying mei, varying opinions, daisaku and daisakudaimei etc and simply look at the forging and hardening then I have grave doubts…..although exceptions always exist. I will have a crack at images of the forging etc hopefully tomorrow and see what if anything it tells us. However, it would be nice if we could believe that it is actually a small Kamakura period tanto of dubious pedigree but even that is probably over ambitious!

I had assumed they were masts on boats but hadn’t really researched that idea. …….yes, selling really good tsuba is really hard n’est pas? They are a beautiful pair, lucky you! …..but I’m not at all envious 🙂

Hi Justin, there are a few telltales in my opinion…..🙂 The bridge is on high ground over a deep valley and on one tsuba we can clearly see a raging river below. Torii do not normally stand at that angle suggesting severe damage Small boats do not float on mist or fog The fact that I had similar on a really serious metalwork box form Meiji but where the flood was 100% obvious convinces me even more.…..and if you ever get tired of them….🙂 Best. C.

@Lewis B Morning Lewis (and anyone interested)……I need all the help I can get. My ability to form an opinion on this is zero……but I do get an unexplained vibe. (Please don’t laugh at that!….hunches have served me well in the past) I did not buy it for the Mei……that was unknown when I bought it. Some further details…. Mitsumune Nagasa 18.0 cm but slightly machiokuri Overall 26.9 cm Motohaba 2.1cm Motokasane 5.5mm Nakago kasane 7.0mm @Ray Singer Many thanks for the link. I’m sure I’ll end up totally confused but I’ll set aside a lot of time and try to get my uneducated brain working. Meantime any opinions, good or not good are welcome. I would think the horimono are later but still rather well done imo I will set about trying to capture some detail on the rather complex hamon and boshi and hada. The old polish with a few stabilised stains does not help much. I suspect there is a lovely koshirae somewhere feeling lonely. All I got was an old but well made shirasaya with wooden habaki and black horn mekugi…..all fitting perfectly

With many thanks to @SteveM for the translation. (Hosono Sozaemon Masamori) A recent acquisition…..slightly earlier than I first thought…. Katana sized (just about) @ 7.5 cm

@Lewis B Hi Lewis, strange coincidence yes? I’ll get on the case in the morning. Only just back from the arms fair earlier today and couldn’t wait to seek opinions….but I’m out on my feet and need some sleep! Best. Colin

@SteveM Thank you so much. Now I can see if I have any info on him. Greatly appreciated. All the best.

Having just sold my final sword and told myself I was no longer collecting swords (I was never a blade collector….just complete swords) I was caught off guard by this (to me) intriguing little Koto tanto blade in an old shirasaya that whispered “buy me” from across the room at an arms fair. It was just lying there on the table top of a lovely gentleman who had some very interesting diverse weaponry. Just from these first few poor images can anybody put flesh on the “Kunimitsu” Mei…..or the date? The horimono are very well executed imo and the overall appearance is one of elegance and quality (again imo) despite obvious machi okuri. The nakago has a very dark/black patina that does not look fake with some later more active rust. I will try to image the hada and hamon/boshi in due course but meantime……I’d love your opinions. Thanks for looking! And….Seasons greetings!

First impression for me of the latest piece in question above is that it is a “Nagoya mono”……poor quality work from a “maker” famous for cobbling together assorted original designs into a pseudo “Mino Goto” type work. Cast and vaguely hand finished to various degrees in an alloy that is not shakudo. As for the original fine daisho tsuba…..I remain convinced that they depict a flood…..to me it’s fairly obvious and I wonder if it relates to the great “Yoshi River flood” of C1590 that wiped (virtually) out the Bizen tradition of swordsmithing? That would be a fitting theme for tsuba and I once owned the same design on a very high quality Meiji period shakudo and mixed metal box where assorted bridges and buildings were peeking above a massive flood whilst a couple of survivors poled along on small boats, clearly a disaster scene. Just my opinion which counts for little🙂

Please may I ask for help on this one? I’m lost as usual…..it’s a meticulously cut very small neat Mei on a heavy copper Katana sized tsuba that I acquired at the Birmingham Arms Fair yesterday. Takemori was as close as I got and I’m probably wrong. The rest is asking too much of my kanji blind brain. Many thanks in advance. Colin

Michael, thanks for the invite but having had a stand at the last 7 Birmingham Arms Fairs I have met a wide assortment of other collectors and dealers including many members of the Token etc. Those encounters and lively discussions plus the sales they have generated have given me a perspective on the current UK market and to an extent the issues that exist within it. Of course for those of you that visit Japan and collect at a higher level the perspective will be very different. Also, as I am no longer collecting or owning swords I have not renewed my Token membership.There is no malice in that I assure you and I wish the Token and all other enthusiasts great enjoyment and happiness within this unique “hobby”. I am now moving on to sell my gun collection, that might not be so easy.

Michael, you will see from my earlier comments that I fully understand and acknowledge the massive changes that have occurred within this market in the last 20 odd years. Having sold 58 swords in the last 2 years without going anywhere near an auction house I assure you I am in the real world with the massive caveat that that is within the insular and now somewhat isolated confines of the UK market. My swords were not stellar Juyo upwards items but mostly within the £2-10 k bracket which from what I see represents the “normal” UK market. This statement puzzles me. What about the huge US market and the smaller but active ones in Europe, Australia etc? All the swords shows in the US etc…..Or are we talking here (again?) about the very pinnacle of swords ie Juyo upwards? So again are we referring to the very top end? Why is that false methodology? The hole market is indeed global but within that the geographical variations are enormous driven by supply/demand balances, economic/tax issues, shipping issues, market practices and customs etc They operate very differently and thus yield different results Again I’m puzzled…..the UK sources very little from Japan and I would venture to suggest that other markets are sourcing less from Japan…..it would be good to hear from some US dealers and collectors on that point. Or are we referring to top end items again? Please don’t misinterpret me……the OP was asking about the “market” and I interpreted that to mean the whole market from top to bottom. Also I totally respect the enormous knowledge that those of you who collect higher end swords possess. Personally that has never been my objective but I take my hat of to those that have reached those dizzy heights. But please remember there is a huge market active below that.

Sorry Michael but I don’t think I overlook facts. Auction results are facts. What happens afterwards is unproven and much or the damage is already done. I am not saying that auction houses represent the whole market but they are a factor……a highly visible one. I was an auction house consultant for many years (not for swords!) This whole discussion seems to focus purely on top level blades …….i suspect but cannot prove that they represent only a modest slice of the total market.

Whilst that may be financially true (to an extent) for the auction house it does their image/reputation no good at all to have high unsold rates and they are very conscious of that. That is why they try to depress estimates and reserves at every opportunity. High “unsolds” makes for very nervous department employees. Low estimates and reserves makes for very nervous vendors……selling one or two high profile Lots for serious money can catch the eye and make the headlines but the undercurrent can be a totally different story for both parties. From the vendors point of view it isn’t exactly wonderful either because he is left with a “significant” number of swords that have failed on the open market and although the star items have sold, his unsold items now have the unwanted provenance of having been rejected by the open market in a very high profile way. In such a small niche market that will have been noted by all interested parties ……..and then what?

Hmmm…whistles do have large openings…see below. . Wonder if the smaller holes vary the pitch/tone/note like a flute? Pure guesswork though!

Never seen one in 40+ years. Shape would suggest stag antler and my guess would also be whistle. Possibly a hawking whistle?

Sadly there is nothing we can do. All the major auction houses have “bean counters” deciding what to put effort into and what not to. Once upon a time it was different when specialist departments employed genuinely knowledgeable people who were allowed to do the job vaguely properly. Not so now. Minor departments (eg a Japanese Art) are either closed, moved geographically or tacked on to a wider Dept eg “Asian Art”. The potential comparatively low £return from such niche markets is an irritant to be tolerated rather than developed…..and I guess from a financial perspective (the only one that matters to them) - that’s fair enough. I don’t think anyone on here is naive enough to think that major auction houses are a complete guide to the market but then neither are top end dealers selling top end swords to rich people who don’t care what the price is and don’t know what they are actually buying. Both can cause definite distortions but both are reality……that is what is actually happening. You could argue that auction results are a better reflection of the “everyday” marketplace ie what people are prepared to actually pay for something in open competition with others.

It would be usual for the descriptions to be within a printed catalogue and in the online sale catalogue. Auctioneers rarely do description cards to display with the Lots. Did you see the catalogue?

Agreed! For any market to exist or to survive or to grow there is really only one critical factor……demand. There must be a demand for that product and that demand can vary drastically especially at different price points and in the case of swords, also geographically. So, where is the current demand for swords? Increasing, static or declining and at what price points? What current factors drive that demand?….and are they likely to change…and how, and why? Demand can be encouraged and manipulated to some extent but ultimately people must want it…….whatever “it” is. Right now the transparency that does exist in the “open market” most easily visible via auctions (and even sales on this forum) would suggest the market is over supplied, thus depressed - but as usual there are exceptions. Anything sensibly priced stands a chance, anything over valued stands little chance. Better quality sensibly priced is more likely to sell. What happens behind closed doors is anyone’s guess and is likely to remain so. As Brian has said, the internet has had a drastic impact on the sword market. It has increased product choice and visibility and has thus increased competition between dealers. It has enabled buyers to easily access far more of the “product” than ever before, but has not necessarily increased demand. Static demand coupled with over supply is bad news. Reducing demand coupled with over supply is extremely bad news for market performance. It would be great to have some dealer input…….

I don’t want an argument but this is not true when dealing with clients that are perfectly happy and well prepared to pay a premium for exclusive private buying opportunities. Also many dealers do not wish it known that they sold “sword X” to “customer Y” for “$Z” Not everyone wants exposure to the limelight. It’s the same in any high value commodity market. The art market operates in a very similar way. Imagine you are a dealer with many high net worth private clients…….the problems that could occur when your clients find out what you have sold to their rivals etc. You stand to lose your best customers. Transparency can work negatively as well as positively……it can depress a market if the “prices” start to fall - because there is no guarantee that sword prices will rise especially in this world. We have seen a few very decent collections hit the open market in the last year or two with pretty gruesome results……high percentage of unsold….likely caused by vendors expectations. And, what effects of age demographics will we see……will younger collectors be interested (or able) when these high value swords come onto an open market? Or will they prefer a new Porsche? It’s a complex set of circumstances.

Lots of impressive talk about high end rare and expensive swords but they represent only a numerically very small part of the far wider market. Are we talking about the whole market or a very small exclusive enclave? ….and do the same factors exist across the wider market? ….. and which sectors should most of us be concerned with? The UK has been awash with swords in auctions recently with very poor mixed results……with more still to come. Why is this?