Ken-Hawaii

Lee, of course AutoCAD can't do anything that isn't present in the photograph of the blade. But I doubt that the overall shape of the blade will change all that much, short of suriage, machi-okuri, or something drastic like a reshaped boshi. But one of the criteria is that the owner KNOWS who made the blade, the approximate year, & the school. Otherwise, I'd be trying to do kantei "on the fly," which isn't what I want to be doing for this project. Ray, I absolutely agree that this post is your idea - it's just using AutoCAD is a darn sight easier than using Visio for this type of work. I can accurately digitize the outline of a blade is about 5-10 minutes, although a complex hamon takes quite a bit longer. Linking arcs together, smoothing them, etc., is just too time-consuming! But if you want to digitize a bunch of blades & send them to me in a vector format (probably DXF), that's less work for me.

I'd never heard of Hoope's dissertation, Dan, & an advanced Google search didn't find it, either. With no blade illustrations, I'm not sure how it would help the database, so if I run across it, great; otherwise I'll have to start from scratch. A couple of questions to define what we're looking for: (1) Should we stick with katanas only, or include wakizashis? (2) As the overall objective is to assist with kantei (right??), what information should be included? I've Attached a PDF file that I use to kantei my own blades, but because I won't have the actual blade in hand, I won't have any of the 3D parameters (thickness, mune type, hi depth, etc.). Which of these should be included in the database, & how will they be used for kantei? (3) Do we want a simple Excel spreadsheet with images, or a real SQL database? Which parameters will we be calling up to help with kantei? Answers to those will at least get me started. Final Sword Documentation.pdf

Thanks for that info, Ray. I happen to be one of the team that created the original AutoCAD, so of course I choose that over Visio (which I also use). That's an interesting way to grab a raster image in Visio, by the way. It's a lot easier & more precise to do that in AutoCAD because all I have to do is measure the exact length of the blade, & then tell AutoCAD to scale up the inserted raster image to that length. Tracing the outline of the blade & hamon is done using what are called polylines, & I can then smooth those several different ways to get an almost perfect fit. And of course the best reason to create a vector drawing in either AutoCAD or Visio is that it can be zoomed into (magnified) as far as needed without losing any accuracy. Huntershooter, using AutoCAD or Visio to find the centerline for sori determination isn't quite a slam-dunk because the curve of the mune isn't exactly smooth by mathematical standards, so there's still a subjective factor in determining the point of maximum deflection. It's easy to locate that point via parallel lines, but when I draw the centerline based on that, it turns out that the sori doesn't match in many cases. For example, a known Koto Bizen I have shows the centerline well into the torii-zori area, while examining it visually it's obvious that it's really koshi-zori. :? Gabriel, that really is a very useful analysis & drawing of the kissaki. Did you use a vector program to create those cross-sections? I like your idea about developing some quantitative measurements for kantei, & am more than willing to help. My wife & I only have about 15 Nihonto in our collection, half of which are wakizashi, so I would need a bunch of really good photos of blades from known eras & schools along with precise lengths of each blade to begin developing a database. I would then create an AutoCAD drawing in which everything can be accurately measured. About the only thing I won't do again is try to digitze the mei - that's just way too much work! Anyway, let me know if all of you think this is a good idea, & we can brainstorm the best way to share the data.

A couple of questions, Ray, from another long-time engineer. I assume you used AutoCAD, right? And did you generate the outline shape from an inserted raster image? I've digitized a couple of my blades the same way, but I'm still looking for a better method to get all the details of the hamon & boshi without doing a laborious & tedious manual trace. I have raster-to-vector conversion software, but am wondering if you've found an easier way.

Ray, neither infrared nor black (ultraviolet) light will show anything about the blade's details. We simply can't see either light range, in the first place. Infrared is heat, & ultraviolet doesn't show anything that doesn't fluoresce or phosphoresce. A bright point-source is the best light to view your blade's details.

Actually, the very first thing to do is to sign your messages with your real name. I kinda' doubt that "Twofish" shows up on your driver's license.... You haven't mentioned whether the katana you want to buy will be (1) hung on a wall, (2) used in some martial art, (3) used to cut down innocent trees & bushes, or (4) studied & appreciated. In the first case, pretty much any forge can put out a decent high-carbon-steel blade, sometimes even with a real hamon. In the second case, you're going to want to buy an iaito, rather than a shinken, & you're probably on the wrong forum, too. In the third case, see my answer to #1. If by some chance, you're really interested in buying a Nihonto, browse over to the For Sale Or Trade area of this forum (viewforum.php?f=4) & take a look at what our members have for sale. Larry (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7784) has at least a couple of decent blades for sale in your price range. But I agree with the other posts that you should first buy, read, & understand several Nihonto reference books so that you'll have at least some idea WHY you're buying a specific blade, WHAT you have once it's in your hands, WHEN & WHERE it was made, & WHO made it. Holding a piece of Japanese history & culture in your hands is a wonderful feeling...if you know enough to be able to appreciate it. Good luck, & welcome to the forum.

It's not quite 90 out here in Hawaii, Andy, but 87 is pretty darn close. My wife has studied kendo for many years, & wears her bogu three times a week to train. Kendo bogu (armor) consists of the men (helmet), do (stomach protector), tare (groin protector), & kote (gloves), along of course with the shinai (bamboo sword), bokken (wooden long sword), & kodachi (wooden dagger). This link http://www.e-bogu.com/In_Stock_Kendo_Bogu_s/28.htm shows all the parts, & how they are positioned when worn.

Andy, you certainly gave my wife & me a good laugh!! The do protects the upper chest & stomach, not the back, & the tare covers your cojones, not your butt!! Switch everything around.

They spent a lot of time looking at the nakago, Louis. The sujikai yasurime can be easily seen with the blade in front of you, but don't come through well in a low-resolution photo.

Oops! Forgot to mention it's mumei. And our three former shinsa couldn't agree on school or smith, but did concur it's Shin-shinto.

I just acquired what is by far the best blade for my Nihonto collection. It's massive - nearly 1 kg bare - & gorgeous. I haven't ID'd the smith or even the school for sure, although the kantei at my Japanese Sword Society meeting was pretty raucous :D, so I'd appreciate comments. Here are some photos:

Moriyama-san, are there any places in the U.S. that sell these cabinets? I'm in high gear to buy or build a new case for my Nihonto collection, but the high humidity out here in Hawaii is a definite factor, plus I live right across the street from the Pacific Ocean with lots of salt air blown our way. My wife & I currently use a cabinet like what you see in stores with a removable acrylic plastic front. But with my latest acquisition, we definitely want something better looking & a LOT more secure! I'll post the blade for comments as soon as the transaction is completed.

Jim, to add a bit to this discussion, take a look at http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/swordphotography.htm & http://swordforum.com/sfu/photography/poolside.html. Malcolm has a good idea in using a fluorescent light along the blade, & I use a similar setup with a regular tungsten light on a stand, but stretch stocking or pantyhose material over the end of the light box so that I don't get those harsh streaks from the light-source. Try using a polarizing filter if your camera has the right attachment; you can always hold the filter in front of the camera's lens if you keep the camera on a tripod. I've gotten strobe flashes to work, but it's seldom worth the ime it takes to tweak things. Ken

Aloha, all: I've been off-net for a few months: my dad passed away & I missed his funeral because I was in the operating room for kidney cancer. I'm 63, & looking to make it well past the 103 he made it to! I've been using a sword of some sort since 1951 when dad hooked me up with his Fencing Master. My wife & I have also studied Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu iaido for about 20 years, & it finally dawned on us that there were other types of swords besides iaito. We've only been collecting for about six years, but have a reasonable collection, concentrating on Bizen Nihonto. Our biggest problem has been keeping things from rusting out here in tropical Hawaii, but we finally have that under control. I've recommended this forum to all of the other collectors in the Japanese Sword Society of Hawaii, only one of whom knew about NMB. Thanks for all the past & future help!

No luck on my side, Henry. I've tried registering 11 times so far, & am giving it up as a lost cause. (1) the Web script keeps changing my date format no matter how many times I put it in as xx/xx/xxxx; (2) it has also blanked my password in the second box as soon as I type it; (3) it blanks my comments (NOT BRIGHT to have that as a mandatory field!!); & (4) when I managed to get through once on my ninth try, it refused my PayPal payment, & told me I had an invalid login. My time is more valuable than all this!!

I'm 62, & have been swinging swords (Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu iaido) for about 15 years, but didn't really get interested in collecting Nihonto until just a few years ago. A good friend who also happens to be sensei of a different sword style took my wife & me home for dinner while we were visiting Japan & showed me a few of his treasures. Wow!! What a wake-up call!! My wife (also an iaidoka) & I decided on the spot that we would begin our own collection & study. So, no sports cars, mistresses (wife who swings swords - remember?), or other collections any more, but a dozen nice treasures of our own. :D

My paper is actually coming together, but I do need some help in one specific area. On the Web-page http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9910&L=iaido-l&P=23876, there is the following reference: I have been trying to find some more info about these swords, but have run into the proverbial brick wall - too many bloody anime/manga/game references to wade through!! If any of you are willing to spend a bit of time finding some "meat" on this topic, specifically the presentation of the sword to Emperor Taisho, I hope to have my first draft done in a week or two, & will attach a link to the PDF file for comments, suggestions, & fireballs. Thanks!

Very nice find, Alan! Those links definitely appeal to the engineer in me! And I was also aware of the blades made by Yoshihara (I have several of his books), but he hasn't answered my e-mail as yet. I'd heard about the kaab meteorite in Mecca, too, but kinda' doubt they'd let me in to check it out.... This is a very slow process, I'll admit, but I'm not giving up on my quest to write that paper. Please continue to send me these tidbits so I can press on!

I'm not sure it's the heat treatment, Chris. I got the following e-mail from Dan Fronefield, who makes some absolutely gorgeous knives from meteors (http://meteorforge.net): "In talking to my fellow knifemakers, it seems that nickel increase hardenability...not as much as manganese, but I believe it does this by stabalizing austenite a bit.. In doing so I believe it acts to "even out" cooling curves....and therefore the activity in hamon. As I said earlier, I can get hamons, but they are fairly flat ... looses the "wow" factor. That makes me think that lack of hamon activity might be a good "tell" for a Japanese blade that was made using meteorite. I can't say that I've ever seen one with no activity, but then it would be rare to see such a one in published books on Japanese swords where only the best are shown. I did spend a number of hours in a Japanese sword museum in Tokyo several years ago, but I just don't recall the trip well enough to remember what I saw." I'm still working with Dan to figure out if there's some way to create a katana blade WITH hamon & WITH meteoritic iron. I'll keep the forum posted.

Thanks for the reference, Grey, & my apologies for the late reply. I have a fairly severe neck injury, & have been laid up for the past 10 days. Can't use my computer very often because I don't hold my neck right, according to my doctor.... I'll order a copy of that book tomorrow, as it may help in my quest. Chris, did Rick tell you that adding meteoritic iron will likely wipe out any hamon? Something to do with excess nickel. :?

Never mind, Ford. I found the book on the Satcho.com Web-site: Japanese ART & HANDICRAFT H. Joly and K. Tomita (r.1976) Originally published in 1916 as a limited edition of 175 copies, this is the renown "Red Cross" catalog. As a fundraiser for the British Red Cross, this loan exhibition combined outstanding examples of Japanese paintings, prints, drawings, sculpture, netsuke, lacquer, inro, and metalwork. Sword fittings in particular are well presented taking nearly half of the book. 1,376 Items are illustrated in 162 b&w and 8 color plates. Each item is described and extensive documentation is also provided regarding the history of the major schools. 395 pages, 10¼ x 12¼" hardcover Of course they don't have any copies available right now.... One more item to find.

Ford, are we talking about the same Red Cross as we have in the U.S. helping people in disasters? The content in your scanned page sure doesn't look like it! Can you please give me a cross-reference (ISBN, etc.)? This snippet does look very promising! I've been checking out the Indonesians' use of meteoric iron, but haven't found a link between them & the Japanese as far as metals transfer. Now I can check out what India did in the same period. :D What's another few hundred million people to filter through...? :? Mahalo! (Thanks!)

Wow, that looks very interesting, John. Thanks for digging that info out. No links to it on the Web, of course, so I'll take your advice & try my local bookstores. I had an interesting conversation with a Buddhist priest I know who also swings swords. He has seen several blades with meteoric iron in the Japanese temples he visits, & has promised to copy down whatever information is posted with them the next trip he makes. There are evidently quite a few Japanese religious sites that have either meteorites or objects made from them - I wonder how things like that fit into the Japanese psyche? Thanks again for helping out.

Lee, as a fellow iaidoka & collector, I would really hesitate to use this blade for iaido practice. As noted above, you might have a quite valuable Nihonto, & using it to train will not add to its value.... I do understand that you don't plan to sell it, but I think you'll find that most of us on this forum are believers in maintaining & preserving as much historical value as possible with Nihonto. Your mei indicate that this blade might be historically significant.... I only use shinken in my SMR jodo practice (modified KSR), but I carefully bought a Showato "beater" that serves my training purposes well without having any real significance. BTW, my wife & I will be disembarking in Burnie on 12/8 of this year, Lee - are you located anywhere nearby? We'll be on the Holland America Volendam on our first vacation in a decade! Can't bring our iaito along, of course, but we wouldn't mind some ideas of what to do for the 10 hours we'll be there. And meeting other iaidoka sounds like a great idea.

Randal, looking at the badly-deteriorated tsuka isn't going to help much, nor are shots of the other furniture. Can you please post a full-length shot of the blade, along with some detailed (i.e., close-up & in-focus) shots of the entire nagasa? The kissaki & boshi are particularly important. It's the details in the blade workmanship that will help us to help you identify your wakizashi!