Mantis dude

Hi all, Picked up this nice tsuba and it comes with NBTHK papers which are green (I believe that is a good thing!). Very nice tsuba with multiple bugs including...you guessed it a Praying Mantis. I do much better with sword translations, but I can't translate any of this, if someone would be so kind as to do a full translation for me, I would be most appreciative. I can't even get the date, I believe it starts off showa? but then I am lost from there. Most importantly, it is an elegant tsuba and a unique addition to the collection. I have 2 other tsuba to add as well so this is #35. Thanks in advance for your help. Kamakiri Ken

Don't have any examples to share, but I have seen ko-shaomi designed and done in a similair manner to owari/ko-akasaka. The depictions were definately shared amongst each other no doubt showing the look of the times. The same "in fashion" concepts apply today that applied to the samurai back then. Each school may have used their own steel and traits, but there definately was a lot of bleed over between them. Interesting topic.

I would have to agree with Rich T and Curran. Look at some akasaka mantis shapes. While original in thought, making it a mantis doesn't fit what a mantis would look like, unless perhaps you stepped on it (I should say if you dared to step on one). Thanks for your help..

Wait let me take some more medications..............ok, well, no me thinks that is pushing it, especially since the feets are above the belly. oh yeah Usually a round dot is a dew drop (top of seppa dai). Maybe I need more meds??? I will continue to ingest......the things I do for "art"

Hi all, I saw this tsuba a few weeks ago, I think on ebay? and it was described as 2 mantises. I didn't see it. Well the owner emailed me when he found my site and asked me if it is a mantis. My "mantis dude" opinion is that it isn't. I don't see it. I would expect to see antanae, the famed claws and 2 sets of back legs. I can't id that in this tsuba. I see a goose on the left hand side, but that is all I could recognize. Anyone care to guess as to what it is? I am away and don't have any books to skim through. Thanks.

Where does the Nara school fit in? I thought that most of these (Mito and Aizu) are copies of Nara. Threw that in just to make it more complicated. Opportunity for some breakthrough work. I was speaking to Jim G. about these since I have many (they did a lot of mantises). Robert Haynes used the term "Mito Shoami" to describe them, but there aren't any records of that actually being a school. If one sees that term being used take it as descriptive term rather than as an actual school. Getting away from that term, the plates were the difference, there is a certain look to them that is different than the original schools. The plates have a kind of shine and rusty look to them. Many of mine he dated to the early 1800's. He said that he has come across many of these and they were actually mounted. So, I would assume that they were intended for the Japanese market. Perhaps the really poor works are from a later date and can be seperated out since they were intended for the foreign market? On the earlier pieces, Did the merchant class buy these for mounting? or perhaps the Samurai baught them since the merchant class was continuing to prosper and could afford the more elaborate pieces, while the samurai were on the decline - Ronin wear?

Interesting topic, I have a similiar issue, I think Aizu shoami are very good at copying. These guys still had skills, perhaps what they lacked in originality, they still had metal work abilities. The plate is the only difference between the two. These 2 mantis tsubas (of course mantises) look almost exactly alike, the detail work matches extremely well. However, the larger one is Mito and the other is Aizu shoami. I actually found the exact copy of the smaller one (it is still a large tsuba) and it was labeled Aizu shoami from a Japanese website. I went to buy it but was too late. Anyway, I think they are just good artists and were able to copy Mito style very easily or maybe they even got hold of the design books and started cranking out pieces. There is definately differences in quality of work of Aizu even within the "shiirimono" works. Purely guessing.

Yes, need to get on more or faster, however unless it was a new item I have the pic saved. It is probabley Milt, he seems to sneak in there and buy it, figures he'll retire on selling them to me......little does he know...I don't work!!!haha. Thanks again. Ken

I prefer the file to be found, but I know they had a few pieces on for a while, so does sanmei, a nice daisho pair of mino tsuba for $6000+. Thanks for the thought though. The blank web page is apropriate for what I should be buying, just got my sword back from being polished, first time I have had something polished. Looks great btw. Will try and post in other section when and if I can. Keep them coming, if nothing else I save the picture. I acquired a set of menuki that I originally saw about 6 years ago. Thanks again. Ken

Milt, That was another thought for sure. Yours is what I believe a classic Onin piece. One of the Onin differences is the strange nakaga-ana, although it was done by stamped. just something to look at. I think you did well on that one! Thanks for the input.

The happier I get with tsuba the happier the rabbit gets and yes I would say mino kinko on the F/K. Gold work is different than normal. Sword has nice attributes too. koto work hopefully. Thanks for the inputt.

Has potential, but most likely signature is Gimei. I am by no means expert on tadayoshi, but the kanji all seem stretched out, and there are on wrong side of tang for school, although I have seen a few like this. There appears to be some hada and a fancy hamon, so it has some things going for it. Would need more pics. Take tsuka off and lets see all of it, also some closeups of hada, boshi ,etc. Taking pictures is a pain, hard to get good ones. Good luck

HI all, Picked up sword recently and it has this tsuba attached. Any guesses to age or school? It may be tosho or something similiar with very nice smooth brass (?) inlaid rabbitt. You can see at least 2 long folding seams on sides. It is 7cm wide and is 8.4cm high. I think this might be decent tsuba, any input? Thanks.

Hi all, I just had to share this. Rather then duplicate, I am linking to my website tsuba section. Top piece. I believe this is a Shoani Shaomi piece. Look at the layers in the nagaka ana 1/3 copper, 1/3 most likely iron, 1/3 copper. I'm Digging this one!!! http://www.freewebs.com/kamakiriken/tsubaupload.htm

Hi all, needing to pay for some mantis items so I put together a sales page. It is rare that I have anything non-mantis, but I had to buy a bunch of things for a mantis tsuba. Appreciate any feedback or ask questions. http://www.freewebs.com/kamakiriken/salepage.htm Thanks for looking Ken aka "the Mantis Dude"

I think why Jim G's book list is relied on, is because there really are few kododgu guys. more to the point, what are your interests? kinko, sukashi, goto, higo, shoami (Eventhough we give them a bad name, they are consisdered to be very good and to be so proliferic for so long indicates they were considered good at least at some level). Are you looking for ko-, kyoto, etc. It seems that the better way to ask is in defining where you are looking to go. To be knowledgeable in them all is perhaps looking for a book that doesn't exist. Certainly there are similiar/copied shapes but because of seppa dai or size is classified as owari, while shoami, etc have their own. Maybe taking a 1 book on one school can give your more indepth learning into one school. Still I always find that mysterious chapters of information I would love to know what they are sayingl Even if books like shokei (sp?) give great examples for different schools, you are only getting a page or two on on the school which can make attribution very hard. However, relying on a book of all choshu with back up of handling kodugo of choshu. gives you a knowledge into that school. Then do the same for busho. If you can tell differences between these school, move on. There are perhaps more books on owari, kyoto, shoami (can't remember exact schools) that copied from each other so there are books that help differentiate their styles. There is more to handling and being able to tell good vs bad. Handling should help with age and point to those schools so that the books go hand in hand with the handling of the actual pieces. I wish I had instuction/instructor to help me through it all. just some thoughts.

Milt, always looking for that daisho. While I would say they have obviously the same style, one has a bit more of a curvature (top one) in inner diamond. Not sure if this would indicate another maker or perhaps made at a different time. Just a thought to the untrained eye. Would be interesting to see what Jim G. says or someone else such on this one. I assume you think steel is the same ie from the same time period? The question is were they made together? with this slight difference puts a "?". Close, just not sure close enough. That is my guess.

Must be neat! I'm hoping to attend the NY token kai this weekend and meet some fellas in person!

Thanks guys, I have more familiarity with Aizu shoami copying. It always comes down to the plate I guess and that is hard to tell on the internet sometimes, especially with color so easily distorted. I will try and handle some at somepoint just to get a feel for them. Rich interesting piece. Nice contrast of the shakudo mimi with the wabu... plate (did I get the wabu right- full word please). It is interesting to note that I have shown some guards to more senior collectors and been told, look at that plate, must have been perfectly flat and smooth, but then you get into the manufactured sheets and that would be a negative of them. I guess the forging of iron to get it perfectly smooth was hard to do? maybe before mass production? Thanks for your input.

Rich, Just was looking for clues. This type/look of a tsuba is very common/most prevelant. Just picking your brain (if you haven't drank it with all that aussie wine). Anyone have a real kanaie pic for comparison?

Is that gut feeling or are there specefics that make you feel that way?

In reading the interview book on modern swordsmiths (can't remember exact name of it) there were comments that many smiths today use the electric hammer. So that has no bearing. I believe it is mostly due to steel although even older swords used non-tamahagne steel, but those are traditionally made. What about oil tempered swords are they legal or not?

I've seen 2 piece habaki in gold, silver and copper. To sum up best, you can't tell much about blade with habaki, better to just look at blade. A set of nice mounts may indicate a nice blade but so many blades have been swapped around that you can't really conclude anything. perhaps if there where a bunch of swords to look at, go for the nicer mounts 1st. I do wonder if there were particular styles used in different eras. I assume the fancier ones with designs weren't used until the edo period although that doesn't mean 2 piece construction wasn't done. wonder if there are any benefits to different construction types?

Hi Ed, One of the nicer things about tsuba is that price barrier is far less than swords to enter. My advice other than what was given is avoid most of sotherby and christies catalogs, other than the few mentioned. Most of the time they have only a few of tsuba pictured and the one I wanted to see usually is shown. However, the major collections like Alan Harvie aire different. I haven't been as serious a student as Rich T, but have slowly picked up some things, still have a ton and 1/2 to learn. The one thing that I am starting to really enjoy is feeling the tsuba and the plate. I have taken a jump up in the price range (hope that translates to quality). It is weird but my last purchase made me think of silk steel, best way to describe. My collecting habits are more unique in that I have a theme and hope to fill in as many schools as possible that depict the Mantis. This allows me to enter both kinko and the iron world. I'm hoping you have been to my site where you can see some of the Mito/Nara/shoami styles. Going back to the plate, in the begining I was buying Aizu shoami pieces. They look good at least at the surface. However, when you start buying the mito pieces, better quality items you start to notice a difference. Anyway good luck with it and definately use these people lots to learn. http://www.freewebs.com/kamakiriken/index.htm

Hi, I know this thread was a little old, but I just found some menuki to go along so I thought I'd post http://www.legacyswords.com/fs_ant_menuki3.htm enjoy