Kronos

Thanks bob, Yes I'm in the UK and Yes Ohio USA. You won't catch me anywhere near Bonhams or Christies with my bank balance and all the competition the big auction houses attract. Much better if you're bidding in auctions to go bargain hunting at small places where you may get lucky and be the only person with an interest and some knowledge of Nihonto. I believe what helped me out is it was poorly listed so most internet buyers wouldn't of seen it. I actually have my eye on something else with Bonhams etc having big sales at present it may slip through and I'll actually be able to travel and view in person beforehand. If I were a swordsmith even being mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Kotetsu wouldn't be such a bad thing.

No analogies needed, it seems very simple to me that Juyo doesn't have a direct correlation to value as the criteria used is different to the criteria most people would use when deciding how desirable and therefore valuable any given sword is. A Juyo's only difference to Hozon is how it fits into the big picture which is immensely important from a historical point of view even if it's in a rather sorry state. It all depends on how important it's significance is to the buyer but if you can afford $20,000 for a Juyo 99.9% who can could simply wait a little longer and spend $40,000 on a really nice Juyo that can be appreciated much more aesthetically which isIifeel why the cheaper Juyo's don't sell well. From a personal perspective I am rather fussy when it comes to flaws and tiredness in general. I'd much prefer an Ubu generic Enju example in very good condition than a signed Rai Kunimitsu that has lost everything about it that made it good when forged.

That makes sense, lovely Horimono on that btw

on the photo in the second post if you look on the left hand side you may just be able to make out the faintest Nioi line.

Indeed Darcy, looking at examples of the first generation especially despite not being in hand they're particularly impressive in a lot of ways. From closer study of my sword "technical execution" would describe it perfectly. Everything about it seems very well done albeit lacking somewhat in regards to "Art" but that may very well come out in the polish. The only thing that seems lacking is the Suguta but that may just be my predilection for old Koto giving me an unfavourable bias, although saying that it looked good enough and was the thing that initially drew me to the sword @Robert: I did plan to submit it to NBTHK while it's in Japan for a polish, I found it in a little auction house called Forsythe's somewhere in Ohio while browsing online. So far it's set me back just under £1600 including buyers premium, shipping and customs duty which I'm very happy with even if Gimei with the price of a polish it will still be good value imho. Chris, that first example you've posted looks strange to me. One thing I've noticed from the 5 or 6 valid examples I've seen is that the original mekugi-ana is always placed between Yasu and Tsugu when signed in this way and also the Tsugu looks different and that is the defining feature when seperating generations. Are you sure this is the Edo Sandai? Here's a good reference on the different generations for comparison if you scroll to the bottom:http://www.nihonto.com/abtartyasutsugu.html

I'd agree on Mino derived work, It's reminiscent of Shinano Tadakuni or even Mino Kanefusa as has already been stated.

Looks like it can be saved just about...but with the additional cost of the reshape not to mention the condition you'd find the kissaki in afterwards my gut says it wouldn't be worth it. A polisher will know for sure.

As a spritely 28 year old I think I'm the exception to the rule and most people my age are simply too busy starting a family or progressing their career at this stage in life to even contemplate collecting anything much, especially a hobby that requires so much learning. Hopefully in the next 2 years I'll be re-entering education to progress my career, at which point I can't imagine having the ability to further my Nihonto knowledge for quite some time as doing both would simply be too draining. I'd say most people will be in their 40's with kids who are almost grown and in a settled place job wise with the financial stability to afford what can be a very expensive hobby. I guess we'll find out when those of the Manga/Anime generation reach that age who one would hope would have the most interest in Nihonto due to their predisposition to Japanese culture. Even then it takes a certain type of person and despite my earlier post seeming optimistic I'm very much a realist in that it could go either way. One thing that is going for it is the fact it is so unique, where else can you get something 700 years old that took real skill to forge for such a price? Ultimately I'd echo others thoughts that quality will always win out and there will always be a market for anything about your average Jo Saku or above which you can already see the gap forming to the lesser swords. On the bright side if prices do continue to fall I may one day be able to afford something on Darcy's site

Nothing wrong with the importation of Swords here in the UK, they simply need to conform to the law which for Nihonto is simple enough to show. Ebay is a completely separate matter in which the company has taken it upon itself to ban the purchase/sale of items that fall into an entire category *just in case* someone sells something illegal or to a child. This was a PR stunt by the company and an easy solution instead of policing it properly. As far as I can tell there's no threat of the laws being tightened any further and ebay's policy is inflating prices in the UK if anything as it takes away one avenue of purchasing directly from owners so everything seems to go through dealers and auction houses now. From my perspective I can only see the prices rising in the west due to the decrease in availability from veterans and their families, the improvement of the world economy over the next decade correcting prices and all the new wealth that is being generated in the developing world. Longer term all the amateur's ruining swords not to mention these are finite goods that can only go through so many polishes and will eventually become too tired, especially the old Koto swords that only have a single polish left in them. Ultimately it will depend upon whether the buyers are there and if the interest remains that can outstrip the dwindling supply.

03 is Hyaku Ken Hyaku Setsu.

The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords is now sold, thank you. Hawley's is available.

Looks to be either an unknown smith (doubtful given the clumsy Mei) or Gimei of Kaga no Kami Sadanori. It looks be be 1600's either way...

I've never been able to fathom how they and many others manage to sell anything with the prices listed. Not to beat on the Lanes I'll give another example. In the summer I went to a militaria fair which was mainly old pistols and european swords, however there were dealers that had a few Nihonto and sold them regularly. The prices were plucked completely out of the sky and I can only imagine it's due to their lack of knowledge or the majority of their customers having more money than sense and feeling like adding a "samurai sword" to their collection. The item that stands out was an unpapered shinto Waki by a decent but not spectacular smith (the smith escapes me but I believe he was 60 points in Hawley's, wazomono etc). It was priced at close to £7000, albeit in nice Koshirae. I thought this was extortionate so looked up the smith when I got home to find a nicer papered Katana by the same Smith on Aoi Art for ¥650,000 in Shirasaya. Like I said the koshirae was quite nice but still nothing compared to the price tag. Is this just a British thing or are Nihonto and fittings dramatically overpriced by general antique dealers in this way in the rest of the world?

Whats going on with that "polish"?

I know of people who won't ship to Italy but can't remember why now and if it is such a big problem. I'm sure someone with more shipping experience will be along shortly.

Bump.

I'll just leave this here for anyone with the means to get themselves a nice xmas present http://www.nihonto.com/AraIchi.html Simply magnificent!

Speaking of price and top of collections has actually made me realize I have not yet considered any of these things and where I want my collection to be at in 5, 10 or 20 years from now. The Kunimitsu in question does elucidate certain sacrifices us mere mortals have to make when deciding what is important to us. With ¥2.5m for example you could either get this or maybe a much healthier mumei Tachi by a less famous smith not that I am in anywhere near a financial state to come close to affording either anytime soon. I guess it has given me clear direction that I need to write down a list of what is important and goals one should strive for instead of simply picking up anything I come across and for that I am thankful.

伊州國 = Ishu no Kuni Seems thats what they were going for but got the Kanji the wrong way round? You never know if they were illiterate or it's a very bad Gimei.

At 0.72cm Kasane it seems a little thick to be an uchigatana, combined with a 68cm nagasa which would make it practically if not completely ubu as well and even then a rather large uchigatana I'd have to disagree with you Darcy. The Naki Gitsune is 54cm by comparison and I'd expect Uchigatana to be in the 55-65cm bracket for the most part (certainly under 70cm) and maybe not see longer ones up until the mid Muromachi. There's always experimental works of course and the strange sugata lends to this however without enough evidence for it to be ubu I just can't see it.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend Denis, my condolences. There's no less than 5 Katana/Wakizashi that look interesting to me, but being Bonhams; like Christies, there always seems to be much competition driving the prices, not to mention dealers.

The estimates seem quite low so I expect things to go for considerably more. It is just before Christmas though so money could be tight for a lot of people and there may be deals.I can see at least 1 item that if Shoshin/good condition would go for 5-10* the estimate. If I have a chance I may go just to experience some of the better pieces and you never know if I think somethings way below what it's worth

Yes there seems to be a wealth of knowledge on these lines (first 4 gens of each branch anyway) and I think I now know as much about the school as I do about any other smith/school. I'm a little surprised that they don't appear to be as desirable as other contemporary schools, that may however be to the apparent sharp decline after the first four or five generations however they do seem somewhat under-appreciated despite the links to the Shogunate. It was a bit of a gamble but the price was good and everything I could see pointed more on the side of shoshin than gimei and since examining in hand I have found nothing that is opposed to the 3rd gens work except maybe the hamon might be lacking in flamboyance that he was know for. 1664 would place it right at the start of his dated works (1663 is the earliest) so that may explain some reservation? I got it from a small auction house in the middle of nowhere in Ohio and it had the feel of being in someones attic since WW2 with the owner/auction house being a little oblivious to what they potentially had. It was purchased with the intent of polishing and Shinsa no matter what so just waiting for the funds to be in place. I've spent a good couple of years studying books when I've had the time and I can attest to anyone else taking up collecting of Nihonto that it really pays dividends to wait until you can amass at least a little knowledge before buying. I'm going to have to read up on dealing with Tsuba rust but do you have any idea on school or age? I'll also post the fuchi-kashira here once I can get decent shots to save creating a new thread on Tosogu. I'm thinking of splitting the koshirae as despite generally thinking koshirae shouldn't be split the menuki are missing, it needs a new Ito wrap, the saya is a bit damaged and all the fittings seem cobbled together already even if they are original.

Ok teaser pics. These turned out a lot worse than i remember :/

Nope, not papered but everything I can see (which is not a lot of the hamon/hada admittedly) matches. It just seems a little odd to me that I could pull out a healthy blade by an ¥8m rated smith on my first attempt so I guess what I'm asking for is other opinions to confirm/deny what I believe or at least state it's not a complete waste of money on junk . My only concern is the date seems a little different to other dated works by the same smith.