paulb

David, I think this subject has been discussed often in the past, and equally often has generated some emotional response. This is not surprising as an appraisal is not a finite or exact science. Human nature being what it is if we get the result we want we think highly of the organisation that gave the appraisal. If we are dissappointed it seems easier to blame the messenger than accept that we may have been wrong. All that said and agreeing with Franco's post above, I have listed my personal preferences below based on my limited direct experience: NBTHK- I have found them the most consistant and in my view accurrate. Equally impotant from a confidence point of view they seem to have broader recognition and acceptance commercially than other bodies. With regard to old vs new papers my understanding that the majority of problems revolved around the "blue" papers issued in the late 70s/early 80's. As a previous poster mentioned there are a lot of ealry papers in existance, particularly higher ones that are, I think, perfectly valid.(I hope so as I have some of them!!) NTHK- I have only had direct experience of the Yoshikawa group but based on comments of others who have experience both groups they seem to be held in equally high regard. As Chris mentioned it is possible one is better in one area than the other and vice versa. I do think there is a difference in accurracy between those papered in Japan and those done on overseas roadshows. I think this is a function of logistics and time. In the Japanese meetings more time is spent with fewer swords and greater availabilty to reference material. Polishers papers- These seemed to have gone out of favour in the past decades but certainly those by such people as Fujishiro and more recently Kenji Mishina are regarded highly. Dealers papers- Possibly the least respected as the seller obviously has a less than biased view. However many (the good ones) are very jealous of their reputation and would not knowingly decieve. As Franco said the real point to consider is the sword we all know this but if honest most of us, for lack of access to anything better draw comfort from appraisals by those who have much greater knowledge than ours. One thing I am confident of is that the opinions of all the above are worth a lot more than mine.

Hi Lee I think you Nambokucho call is reasonable based on shape and size. In its current condition it would be difficult to pass an opinion as to whether it might be original or a shin-shinto copy. My initial reaction is that it isnt a later copy but this view is based more on feeling than evidence. While taking to Japan or considering having it polished may not make commercial sense if you were hoping to sell it at a profit your family association with it may justify the expense. I think you father is a very generous man! good luck Paul

Richard, The amended Crimnal justice act states in paragraph 3 that it is a defense if a sword is made prior to 1954 or made using traditional methods at any other time. This was put in to the act to ensure that WWII swords, even non traditionally made ones, were allowed to be legally imported. The modification, although regarded by many (well everybody actually) as ineffectual was targeted at the sale of modern reproductions and the modifications put in palce to protect collectors. If you want a copy of the amendment send me your email address. Re VAT- The rules regarding VAT seem a little vague and inconsistantly applied. As stated items that are antique which is defined as 100 years old are exempt from import duty and subject to a reduced tariff VAT (was 5% but this may have changed when the main rate went up). Showa-To and Gandaito are not antique and therefore may be subject to both. However I know some members here have listed the swords as "collectable item or curiosity" and been charged the lower rate.

I think they are saying "come on you know you are mug who cant hold on to cash for more than 5 minutes" I then feel obliged to prove them right

I bought my first sword in 1983. I have gone through most of the collection phases identified by learned journals, I spent time buying everything Japanese, I bought every rough blade I could find in the hope it was a national treasure waiting to be discovered. Having learned that this is not the way,at least for me, I took a different approach. I buy swords and other things which strike a note with me. I have seen many that I admire, appreciate and like but when I buy one it has to have something more, to sound old hippie it has to speak to me. I buy swords in good polish from reputable sources and that have been papered. This means I dont buy many nor do I buy very often. In the past when I have bought something because I thought it a bargain or having great potential, I have almost always got it wrong. My small collection of cast tsuba and other such delights confirm this. I am also nervous about buying swords badly out of polish I jsut do not enjoy the gamble. Based on Clive's definition I cannot be regarded as a serious collector. My few trips to Japan have been business related and I have never studied swords there. I would dispute as to whether this means I am not serious. I have studied the subject almost every day for more than 25 years looking at such examples as I can and reading everything I can find. Discussing the subject frequently with those with more Knowledge than me. I have also spent more money on this subject than pretty much anything else, other than basic survival, for the majority of my life. I think that is being serious about the subject. What I do accept is that I am not an expert and cannot expect to know as much as those who do study in Japan (I think we have had this discussion before) Like Grey but not as effectively I have trimmed down my collection to a smaller number of what I hope are better swords, they are certainly ones that give me a kick every time I look at them. Like Keith I have on occassion (three times) assembled a koshirae for particular blades and for a specific reason. I have now largely stopped collecting other than refernce books but still hope to learn a lot more more from examples I can see.

thank you Giles I am much relieved

Giles, I find that as I get older I get increasingly confused but is the sayagaki previously meant to relate to this sword? Allowing for my poor kanji reading the sayagaki says it is an Aoe blade mumei by Tsuguyoshi the mei looks like Kane possibly shige?? Whatever it is it definately does not tie up to the sayagaki. Am I missing something or just becoming increasingly stupid?

Tobias, Go on to the links page and the first page of commercial sites and go to Nihontocraft. This is Danny Massey's site and on there you will find explanations of the papering system of the major appraisal bodies. this may help explain the criteria for papering and the different level of papers. regards paul ps I fully agree with Guido try and visit and join the European branch of the NBTHK. You will gain a lot from the experience and very quickly.

The first question is which one do you think it is? If you believe it to be one of the famous koto Kunitoshi's then yes I think it is wishful thinking on your part. Not sure what you are "poking around in" but suggest you look at things like Nihonto Koza for some oshigata of various Kunitoshi blades and others

Jan, I think you can see from the coments above that my original point regarding describing hada not being an exact science is confirmed. When looking at the finer points of the structure there is as with many other characterisitcs an element of subjectivity. Whatever your hada is it looks to be awell made blade and worth some effort to try and pin it down. Good luck Paul

thank you both

thanks Chris, I had not come across it before. How would you describe it?

Jan, describing hada is not an exact science. Even between the texts we use as startnig points they often define hada differently. Your itame/mokume view is, I think, perfectly acceptable and a reasonable one. I have never come across "Yakumo-hada," so perhaps someone who has can enlighted us both as to what it means.

not possible to be sure in this condition but based on the nakago, the quality of the kanji and overall look of the blade I would think it extremely unlikely.

Jean and Keith, Fake militay swords appeared well before the 1990's. A lot appeared in the UK during the early 80's in what approximated Gunto mounts and with blades which had no edge. At the time it was thought these originated in Pakistan but I am not sure if this was true or if in fact they were early attempts by Chinese forgers. I agree that the more commonly seen gaudy examples which appear here in such regularity seemed to date from the early 90's. To be honest I think fake blades have been produced in various parts of the world ever since there was a market for them so would not be surprised if such were not being made since the beginning of the meji period.

Dear Jair, what you say about gunto and quality is true, and there are some very poor quality gunto blades in existence. However this is not one of them. there is absolutely no doubt that what others have said before is correct. This is a poor chinese copy. It was not made in Japan has probably never been in Japan and I think most likely 30 or 40 years younger than I am which means it didnt exist during WWII. I am sorry but you are clutching at straws, but the facts will not change it is a fake. Sorry that your first experience was a bad one. I wish you luck with your future study and purchases. Best Regards Paul

Yes Jean I understand your point. I have seen a few blades attributed to Yamato Shizu and Naoe Shizu and as you say there is a lot of variation within both. If you look at Yamato Shizu in particular the same term may be used to describe swords made in different areas and in different styles so I guess these variations are not surprising. Regardless of the attribution I think Peter's sword looks an interesting work

Peter/Jean, Something to consider, I seem to remember one of the points used to differentiate Yamato Shizu and Naoe Shizu is supposed to be that there is less activity in the hamon in Naoe Shizu work. One thing clear in Peter's sword is there is a lot going on in the hamon. Could this point back towards Yamato Shizu?

Hi Sergio, glad you are still enjoying the sword even after all the problems we had with the banks!! Best Regards Paul

Both are very good looking swords. For many years one of my favourite swords was a massive O-suriage katana papered to the Kongo-byoe school. It was beautfully made very austere and practical and altogether a well made good looking piece from the mid 14th century. If I remember correctly it eventually went to a collector in Portugal. It is interesting that in general the kongo-byoe school appears to be somewhat underated by many in Japan, their work being considered utilitarian and "country work", but as Jon points out you have Sadamori turning out consistantly good quality work that compare favourably to many of the classical works of that period. I have seen a number of Kongo-Byoe works and all seem to be in a good state of preservation and very well made. Well done on your sword it looks a good buy. Best Regards Paul

Peter, At the risk of sounding patronising the only one who can tell if it was worth it is you. If you are happy with it then it was worth it. Sword prices lke all antiques are fluid and the ultimate value is what someone is prepared to pay for it. Regarding your sword, the fittings look relatively new. The blade itself could well be 19th century but you mention the hada is prominent, that combined with the shape may push it back a little in to the 18th. From the images it is difficult to be more precise. It looks to be a reasonable clean Shinto sword in newish mounts in reasonable condition. Based on what can be seen I would suggest you could find examples of this type of sword for between $3500 and $5000 on websites and at arms fairs they would be more so while you may not have a bargain you havent paid over the top. I am not too sure about the horimono regading the quality and whether it has been applied later in the swords life. SOme one with more experience in this area may be able to help more. Regards Paul

Peter, I think this is seen in a number of schools and traditions. One of the most noted is the Yamato Shikkake School where masame hada running throug in to the hamon is a kantei feature. It also extends in to the boshi to produce the "old mans beard" appearance hakkake. If it was Shikkake you would expect to see bright ko-nie in both hamon and jigane, although this decreases in later generations. regards Paul

To remove the finger prints is likely to require the attention of a qualified polisher and I think it has said before this blade probably does not justify the expense. The best thing to do at this stage is to stabalise it with a thin coat of choji oil. Not sure if it has been suggested but depending where you live it might be worth visiting a local sword soceity (if you are in the UK the Northern Token meets in manchester and the Token Soceity of GB in London) I am sure they would be happy to advise you. With regard to your other questions: O-kissaki means large point. It looks longer than is normal for this type of sword. This may just be because of the angle of the photograph. Traditionally blades are differentially hardened by quenching them in water. This puts great strain on the blade. In WWII blades were often quenched in oil. this is more forgiving and reduces the risk of damage in process. Oil quenched blades are not considered true Nihonto as the correct quenching process contributes some of the characterisitcs of the finished work. hope this helps answer some of your questions but please do contact a local soceity as it is by far the best way to obtain advice as they can see the sword in hand. regards Paul

Hi Austin, sorry I dont it was something that appeared above the horizon last year. I think it was in a Bonhams sale so it should be possible to find it in their archive. If not them then most likely Christies. Not much help I know but all I have. Good luck Paul

Hi Austin, I have had a ten minute run througfh such references as I have but cant find anything that late. The only reference that suggests there was a Bitchu Sadatsugu working in the Oei period is Hawley. Most others seem to end around 1360. As you will probably know most long swords made in the sue Aoe period were massive and as a result few (very few) examples of signed ubu works appear. An ubu Ietsugu was auctioned last year with an estimate in excess of $100k. I dont think it sold but the estimate is indicative of the rarity of late ubu sue Aoe work. There are good examples of ko wakazashi and tanto from this time with full long mei. But again none that I have found to date are as late as Oei period. Sorry I am sure this isnt much help. Regards Paul