paulb

Jean, In the presence of such learning I am cautious to express an opinion but would suggest the following: 1 As said on another thread the longer you heat the steel and the higher the temperature the larger the martensite particles grow. as Nioi is basically very small matensite crystals it makes sense that these have been heated for less time and at lower temperature. Therefore to obtain nie the blade must transition through the nioi phase. 2. This is in some way confirmed in that you see examples of blades that are exclusively nioi based (Sue Aoe, Bizen etc) but I do not believe you see swords that are nie only. thereofre I believe that all swords have a nioiguchi. These can and do vary dramatically in tightness thickness etc but it is always there. At least on any sword I have seen.

Hi Roy, I make no claim to eminance but my understanding is as follows 1. The structure of the steel is determined by the temperature it is heated too, the length of time it is held at that temperature and the speed at which it is cooled. Nie (martensite) grows when the sword is heated above 700 deg. C the longer it is held there the bigger it becomes. As the steel cools the nie starts to decompose and return to its pearlite state. This decomposition is arrested by rapid cooling 2. Rapid cooling as described above creates considerable stress in the blade, the back cooling more slowly shrinks more than edge, this can result in the hamon cracking. 3. cooling in oil is slower and therefore introduces less stress and is more forgiving. (I think it may also be domnw at lower temperatures but I may have imagined that) this means that any nie present has the opportunity to revert back to it's smaller form, nioi, or to pearlite. While not necessarily effecting the hardness of the steel it will effect whether the blade has nie or is nioi based. All the above does assume that the quality of the metal being worked is sufficiently good so as to produce nie in the first place.

I hope you like it as much as you do this one although it is very different. Also please remember it isnt mine I am just the delivery method used by the seller What was it about this particular sword that grabbed your imagination? I am always curious as to what features strike someone. on the 15th of this month it will be the 4th anniversary of the arrival of one of my favourite swords. I have looked at it often and for long periods of time in the intervening months. When I take it from the saya it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up and I have exactly the same sense of excitement as I did on the first day I saw it. Telling you why would be very difficult and take a very long time. I hope you gain as much enjoyment from this work. Best Regards Paul

Hi Alex, I am not trying to answer on Jean's behalf but if you would like another opinion I have put a few thoughts below. You said the most important thing, which is that you saw it and loved it. You then decided that it was worth whatever you paid for it. Only you can determine whether it represents good value. From your images: the blade looks to have a very pleasant shape. The hi certainly add to the elegance of the work. The hamon looks well executed with activity in it. I cannot see too much detail in the hada but it looks to be tight and there are no obvious faults/errors. I dont know this Smiths work but it looks to a a competent and attractive Shinto blade. I am not a student of fittings so will leave it to others to comment as to the quality of the components. I think they are in the style that was popular when the sword was made. From a purely personal subjective point of view I do not like them, they are far too bright and "Loud" for my own taste (but then again anything wich isnt black and with iron fittings usually are ) but there are many who enjoy that style of work. Regarding price to be honest I have no idea how this smith compares to other Shinto workers but you have bought a good looking sword in a koshirae which is either newly assembled or kept in very good condition. So I think you haver done well and should enjoy your sword.

yes I agree with you. I think the only reason to remove it is either to make it fit an existing koshirae or as is more likely to decieve a potential buyer. Either way it would have been much better to leave it there (and probaly added to its value)

Brian you didnt trash the sword so there is nothing to apologise for. I just wanted to be clear that I didnt think he was trying to deceive anyone. Who knows what the reason for the original modification of the sword was.

Brian, I think the key point is that the seller is describing it as Showa blade so he is not trying to pass it off as anything other than what it is. Based on the images I couldnt say for sure whether it was oil quenched but I would think it a reasonable bet that it was. A long time ago I had several Kanezane blades they were all hand forged but with hindsight I am pretty sure they were also all oil quenched. One of them (my favourite blade at the time) needed a koshirae and I lavished great care and attention putting something together that made it look like a real "Samurai Sword" I think that is what someone has done here at some point in the past. whether it was done to decieve we will never know but I do not think the seller is misrepresenting what he has. For what it is worth the price he is asking is about the same as I bought my first Kanezane blade in wrecked gunto mounts for in 1994

Jim, Just a bit of reverse thinking but the best way to improve kantei skills is to look at recognised and indisputable examples of a school or smith's work which exhibits all the traits expected. Then when something less obvious appears you can pull out those features that match the examples you have seen. Looking at borderline multi possible examples can only confuse (me anyway)

I am at risk of sounding like a defensive seller here which is not my intention. Thsi is one of the blades I sold from my list. Now I accept that modern swords are not my thing but having held this blade and looked at it for a very long time I have to say of all the blades there this was one I would have been happy to keep. to suggest this not an authentic Nohon-To is way off the mark. I have never seen a blade made specifically for Iado so I am not sure what Chris is refering to. It was sold as gimei. The finish of the nakago when seen in hand is crisp and neat. The shape hada and hamon are all extremely healthy. If this is not an authentic blade then I have wasted 30 years of my life studying swords and will call it a day. Regards Paul

Hi Chris, you are of course right and whether that might be classed as ko-nie or nioi cannot be determined (I would suggest) without the sword in hand. Is it an over simplification to say that assuming you start with the same material, to create nie you need to take the steel to a higher temperature hold it there for longer and quench it more quickly than you would to create a nioi based piece. this is why oil quenched blades are almost exclusively nioi based? Taking note of your magnification point I am still tending to think I am seeing ko-nie, the particles look seperate rahter than forming a mist. If I do break the habits of a lifetime and get my backside down to Birmingham for the arms fair I will see if I can look at the sword in hand Best Regards Paul

producing art is never wasted. unappreciated, thankless and frustrating yes but in the bigger picture never wasted. regrettably the bigger picture rarely feeds someone. In the words of my dear old Dad "Dont let the bastards grind you down!!"

Hi Ford, we have to bother because we care about the subject and are trying to ensure it has a future (dont I sound pompous in the morning!) It is always painful to learn you have made a mistake or an error in judgement, we all like to think we know better. It must be better for such errors to be highlighted by people who care about both subject and person than by a faceless dealer/buyer at some point in the future. I agree that it can be a thankless task but if no one takes up these issues the subject degenerates and ultimately dies.

Hi Matt, I have no idea why they did it. it is just identified as a feature of that school. there are of course exceptions who signed the traditional way. I can think of no reason for it other than an attempt to differenetiate themselves from the majority.

Hi Matt, Bitchu Aoe smiths signed Katana mei during the Kamakura period. I dont see how that is relevant to this or why he mentioned it as he is claiming it is kagemitsu therefore Osafune School. I think this is wrong on so many levels. the hamon is not Kagemitsu if anything I would suggest is more like Sue Seki but certainly Soden Bizen is another option. What I dont believe it is is a Kamakura blade, not even a late one. I also think the polish looks extremely harsh possibly even acid treated but they may just be the images.

Hi Mark, Let me preface this by saying I am one of the worst at seeing detail from images, but based on what I can see: It looks to have a strong nioi guchi with some ko-nie running along it. There are lines of what could be described as suagashi but as they run in and out of the hamon I wonder if they might be better described as kinsjui or inazuma. I do not see any masame in the hada just longitudinal scratches. The blade does appear to have very tight itame hada almost to the point of becoming muji. The hamon looks to me to be traditonally quenched. I dont see any of the bright hard tooth like patches often seen in oil quenched blades. Certainly the nie and activity would support this view. Whether it is made using Tamahagane is I think more questionable as the hada appears very unifrom and lacking in activity. As suggested at the beginning this opinion rather than known fact and based on what I think I can and cant see.

Brian, how you negoitiate deals is entirely up to you. However I do not think it is wise to post things claiming ownership until the sword is in hand or payment made. This is the second time you have posted a sword saying you had bought it only for it to appear as a live auction on ebay. I am not saying you are being dishonest but it can certainly cause confusion and make people suspicious. You must remember this board has been going for a long while and there have been a number of examples of people claiming ownership to gain information prior to bidding or negotiating on a sword. I believe at one time it was a rule here that we would not discuss values on live auctions, something that seems to have fallen by the wayside over time. I also question your lack of understanding of some people. If you are happy to have someone end an auction early for your benefit and they are prepared to do it, why are you then surprised if they do something equally unreasonable to you? As I think has been suggested before I am afraid that the problem you have experienced is a result of your own impatience and over enthusiasm.

Hi Dan, I think you are right and this is a relatively new blade. Possibly Shin-Shinto but maybe even later. Ther are many reasons why this doesnt seem right for what it claims to be but you have certainly identified one which is the hada looks tight and "new" the whole thing seems to lack antiquity. Sorry this is not a helpful remark but it is one of those things which is more a feeling than fact, like sayng it looks hard, I agree with you but cant define why. I also agree with you that it is a reasonable looking blade. The problem isnt what it is, it is what it is claiming to be. To support Jean's earlier comments: 1. I have never seen an Ichimonji blade with a cutting test doesnt mean there arent any but I would think at least one of the mjor references would illustrate one if it existed. 2. the hada is wrong 3. From the illustratons I cant see any utsuri. 4. If there was any possibilty this was right and it was papered to Juyo level it would be valued in the high 10s of thousand dollars. Even with a basic authentication paper it would be valued at 3 or 4 times what it is listed for here. Therefore you would think anyone who knew about the market and swords (which one asumes this dealer does) would submit it for papers. The problem isnt with the sword which as others have said looks a half decent work. The problem is with the mei and the implication that this is a genuine Fukuoka Ichimonji.

Dimitri, regarding the fashion or popularity of making swords which appeared to be shorten blades from an earlier period, I think there are examples throughout the whole of sword making history. With regard to nagamaki Naoshi, I think making swords to look like this was particulaly popular at the end of the Shinto period and in to the Shi-Shinto.

I think you must have seen some of my early "masterpieces" when I dipped my toe in to the water in the 1980's your ad describes some of them perfectly except for missing off the bit about it being made by a misplaced master swordsmith working in a Yorkshire coal mine during the industrial revolution!

I can see why you might think that Brian and you could well be right. I am not sure whether it is my failing or the technology but make judgement calls based on this type of image I find next to impossible. Even with the quality of images produced by commercial sites such as AOI-Art or Darcy Brockbanks it is possible to miss some of the finer detail. on photo's produced by us more humble mortals the best we can hope to supply is an impression. To summarise what I am trying to say I am not suggesting this is a wonderful piece of work of historical significance but I do think it has some merit. I do not think the size or feature necessarily contradict the attribution There is sufficient detail visible in the sword to learn from.

Hi George, I think what you are seeing is rubbing along the edge, possibly the result of a less than perfect fit in the saya and rubbing over time. If the sword is from around 1550 then it is well and truly established in the Sue-Mihara catagory. I think people's Suguha comments are based on those swords attributed to ko-Mihara or Mihara.We have seen images of excellent Mihara work from those periods. Once you get in to this later Koto period then the massive influence of Soshu and Mino work starts to merge the differences and you start to see common features in many schools of this period such as Soden-Bizen, Sue-Tegai Sue-Senjuin Sue-Aoe etc. Sue- Mihara, I think would also fall in to this grouping. While as with most other schools the quality of the work decreased through this period and as Jean says a lot of average swords were made. I think people are being rather hard on this blade. It's condition looks pretty good from what I can see. I dont think there is anything artificial added. While I agree with Brian about "battle scars" and not getting carried away with the hype I think this is an acceptable sword in reasonable polish

Hi Franco, Just for the record the Enju balde I was refering to was not a uncovered hidden treasure (I am not that brave) It was in new polish with TH papers and it sat on Aoe Arts website being totally ignored for a long time (luckily for me). I think the point I am trying to get to is that I do not believe you can have a single approach to collecting. There are additions you make based on logic, research and understanding and these form the strong core of what you buy. Then there are those that just inspire. If I am honest I think over the years it is this latter element that has delivered the greatest fun. I also agree with Chris regarding oshigata, it has been a long stated belief of Clive Sinclaire and others that this is absolutely the best way to study a sword. I also think that writing about a given piece requires one to research and study not only the blade but the school and tradition it belongs to. This enables you to understand not only what you are seeing but why it is attributed to a given school/smith.

Hi Franco, It is an interesting topic. One I have held back from commenting on because I am still not sure I know what my true criteria are. I agree with you that the collection in one sword is largely unattainable, simply because the diversity within the subject means that no one sword (at least none that I have seen) can possibly show all of features I am looking for. If in fact one did it would probably be immediately dismissed for being over complex and fussy. I have seriously reduced my collection(accumulation) It is now less than 20% the number it was. I have focussed almost exclusively on the Kamakura period and the Yamashiro tradition. To risk being boringly conventional the priorities when looking are shape, hada/jigane hamon and nakago in that order. Of all of these the structure of the hada and actvity within are the thing that I get really excited about. Having focussed on this period I was surprised when handling the swords I am selling for a friend that the one I really liked the best was a Shinsaku-to, the shape was great the hada ok the hamon excellent. I think what really appealed was that it was incredibly healthy, as you would expect from a new-ish blade. So although I focus it doesnt mean that something at the other end of the time line cant appeal. Likewise it has little to do with value. one of my favourite blades remains the Enju wakazashi I have previously written about. It may be the top end of a kamakura period Tachi which will never obtain higher papers than the ones it has and may not be regarded as commercial, it just happens to be incredibly beautiful. So much so that having traded it in to buy something else as soon as I was able I bought it back!

I think the did it because they believed it to be a koto sword

based on what can be seen I would be inclined to say this is earlier rather than later. I think the NBTHK Gassan attribution is also indicative of this and that had they considerd it later they would have said so. The ShinSInto Gasan Ayasugi in the few examples I have seen in hand tend to look more contrived and formulaic than this one. Alos going slightly off topic can I make a plea for both this and other topics with contributions from both Eric and Jacque? I find it both sad and frustrating when two knowledgable people with so much to offer seem to feel the need to bicker and contradict each other every time one or other makes a statement. You sound like two bitter old women arguing over an ex lover. I have no idea what has started this animosity but is there any chance it could be put to one side or at least kept outside of topics such as these where it rapidly takes over to the detriment of the subject being discussed.