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When Did Nbthk Add Punched Dates To Their Origami? It May Help Me Avoid Potential Fakes In Kyoto.

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#1 MangaCarta1215

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 12:49 PM

Hi friends,

 

I am wondering if anyone knows when NBTHK first started implementing punched dates into their certifications of authenticity? I am currently looking into purchasing my first nihonto, and came across some interesting pieces at a shop in Kyoto.

 

After some discussion on reddit (full post here: https://www.reddit.c...d_would_really/), I am starting to question the authenticity of the pieces being offered, including one that is purported to have NBTHK papers.

 

The mei of the first sword, and the corresponding NBTHK origami, are found here: https://imgur.com/a/kNGKzih

 

The second sword is supposedly from *EDIT* the Yosozaemon Sukesada lineage, but does not come with any certification. While it is an absolutely gorgeous blade, I am skeptical as to why it isn't certified (especially given that Sukesada is a commonly forged name). The mei for this blade may be found here: https://imgur.com/a/4Lb4Ts1

 

My two asks of anyone with much more knowledge than I are the following:

 

1. The NBTHK certificate, supposedly from 2008, does not have a punched date in the top-left. Is this an indicator of a fake paper, or is there a chance that some papers wouldn't have the punch (despite me finding evidence online that punched dates were on the papers as early as 2000).

 

2. Does anyone have advice regarding how I could verify the authenticity of the Sukesada blade? On the Sukesada piece, my relatively amateur sleuthing of the signature seems to point at it being legit, but given the quality of the blade (unfortunately didn't take pictures of the full blade at the time), I can't think of a good reason as to why this blade wouldn't be papered if it is truly a Sukesada in the condition I have seen. 

 

A HUGE thank-you in advance for any and all information you may have, it will help me a ton!

 

-Dalton S


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#2 ROKUJURO

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 01:13 PM

MangaCarta1215,

welcome to the board!

Please sign all posts with a first name plus an initial as is required here.


Regards,

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#3 raymondsinger

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 01:18 PM

Hi, who has told you that the second sword is a Yosozaemon? It is signed Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Sukesada.
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#4 MangaCarta1215

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:10 PM

Changed it!

MangaCarta1215,

welcome to the board!

Please sign all posts with a first name plus an initial as is required here.


Dalton

#5 MangaCarta1215

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:17 PM

Hi, who has told you that the second sword is a Yosozaemon? It is signed Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Sukesada.

 

Sorry for the confusion - you are correct, and I meant that Yokoyama falls within the Yosozaemon Sukesada lineage. Here is the exact excerpt from Markus Sesko's "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths N-Z":

 

SUKESADA (祐定), 6th gen., Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Bizen – “Bizen no Kuni Osafune-jū Yokoyama Kōzuke no Daijō Fujiwara Sukesada” (備前国長船住横山上野大掾藤原祐定), “Bishū Osafune-jūnin Yokoyama Kōzuke no Daijō Fujiwara Sukesada” (備州長船住人横山上野大掾藤原祐定), “Bizen no Kuni Osafune-jū Yokoyama Hanbei Fujiwara Sukeasada” (備前国長船住横山半兵衛藤原祐定), “Yokoyama Kōzuke no Daijō Fujiwara Sukesada – Bishū Osafune-jūnin” (横山上野大掾藤原祐定・備州長船住人), “Yokoyama Kōzuke no Daijō Fujiwara Sukesada” (横山上野大掾藤原祐定), real name Yokoyama Hanbei (横山半兵衛), son of Shichibei Sukesada, he counted himself as 6th gen. Yosōzaemon Sukesada, he received honorary title Kōzuke no Daijō on the eleventh day of the seventh month Kanbun four (1664), he died on the 29th day of the eleventh month Kyōhō six (享保, 1721) at the age of 89, together with his father he is considered as one of the shintō-era Sukesada smiths, narrow sugu-yakidashi, gunome-chōji-midare, kani-no- tsume, suguha, we know blades from Manji (万治, 1658-1661) to Shōtoku (正徳, 1711-1716)


Dalton

#6 Pete Klein

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:25 PM

This article goes over NBTHK paper history:  http://www.nihontocr...ord_papers.html


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#7 MangaCarta1215

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:34 PM

This article goes over NBTHK paper history:  http://www.nihontocr...ord_papers.html

 

Thanks, Pete! It's a great article, and it was one of the sources I was using to start determining whether or not I'm potentially dealing with fakes. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find explicit confirmation whether or not all papers post-1982 have the date punched into them. So while it is helping shape my intuition, I was hoping someone might have a more definitive answer. Very helpful though, and I appreciate you taking the time on my behalf!


Dalton

#8 Pete Klein

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 04:43 PM

The paper you have link to image above is from Heisei 2 = 1990.

 

Paper from link I provided is from Heisei 3:

 

00002.jpg

 

(thank you Danny)

 

The serial number is close to yours and the embossed stamp on yours seems to be valid.


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#9 DRDave

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 02:26 AM

I had a similar origami question to ask, and thought it might be good to keep it in the same thread (Thanks again, Dalton!).  Does anyone know when the torokusho number and date were added to the origami?  As best I can tell, it started in 2013, but I'm not certain.  

 

Attachment 1.  Portion of an origami from 2013.  I've not found any earlier years that have the registration info.  Note the small seal to the left of the registration date line.

Attachment 2.  This one is from 2017.  Note the Showa and Heisei dates, with the seal next to the latter.  These first two attachments are the only two I found with the additional seal.  Also note the registration number and date appear to be hand written on both examples.

Attachment 3.  Starting in 2018, the registration number and date no longer look handwritten.  Either that, or the person doing it now has very precise handwriting.

 

Also note the different characters on the left side of the first line.  I've not yet figured out what they say.  

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 2013 Origami w-seal.png
  • 2017 Origami w-two date.png
  • Origami 4.png

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#10 Vermithrax16

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 03:01 AM

The punched holes go back at least to 1998, so does any one know when they were added and why the OP's question has not been answered?


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#11 DRDave

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

Maybe the persons who can provide a definitive answer have been busy enjoying the DTI?  I did see one 1998 with the perforations and a 1993 and 1994 without; so I wouldn't expect the 1990 that Dalton asked about to have them.   For whatever reason, there are far fewer origami from the 1990's on dealer websites than there are from 2000 to present.  

 

Edit:  Found papers for  '97, '96 and '95 that have the perfs; and having previously seen '94 papers without, it appears they started in '95.  Need to find some more '95 papers.  Don't know if it started first of '95 or was a mid-year change.


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