Cello Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Hi I'm still learning to read kanji but I think I'm getting a little better can anyone tell me if I got it right with Kanenaga or is it Kanekiyo ...or am I completely wrong LOL. Does anyone know anything about thhis smith.I could not find a matching Mei with the limited resources I have....any info would be great Thanks Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I see something more like Kaneiri: 兼杁 Quote
Cello Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 Ahhh I see it now...... chris at least I got the Kane right ... But wait now that I look at more maybe I don't Quote
Guido Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Looks more like Kanesugi to me: 兼杦 Quote
cabowen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 I thought so too but couldn't find that kanji in my software dictionaries... Quote
Cello Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Posted January 30, 2012 I've looked around as well and I can't find a Kanesugi either.... Quote
george trotter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 I think it is Kanesugi also...but the sugi is the same as sanbonsugi no sugi...just written with the last/bottom right stroke on the opposite slant... sort of a personal flourish. There are only 2 smiths of this name listed in Hawley (1981) and one is Mino 1532 (KAN2295)...it is not him. As I think this is modern he could be the other (more likely) Kanesugi of Bungo 1868 (KAN2295.1 in Supplement). He also signed "Hoshu ju Kanesugi". Bungo Kanesugi used itame, suguba and komidare. I could easily be wrong, so can you show us the whole nakago/blade please so we can get an idea of period? Regards, PS...as I don't know how to write kanji on computers, can someone put up the sugi character I mean please? (sanbonsugi no sugi) Quote
Nobody Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 ....................... PS...as I don't know how to write kanji on computers, can someone put up the sugi character I mean please? (sanbonsugi no sugi) 杉 = 杦 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 That form of the 杉Sugi Kanji is/was mainly used only in people's names, according to my electronic dictionary. Quote
george trotter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 That form of the 杉Sugi Kanji is/was mainly used only in people's names, according to my electronic dictionary. Thank you Nobody san... ...and yes, definitely used as a name in my Japanese Names dictionary by O'Neill as well. I would think this is the answer to the query...it will be interesting to see a bit more of the sword to see if it fits with what little we know about the late shinshinto/early Meiji Kanesugi of Bungo. Regards, Quote
Guido Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 杉 = 杦I’m not sure that those are variants of the same Kanji. If we go back to the roots – i.e. Chinese - 杉 is read “shān”, 杦 is “jiŭ”, and they are treated as different Kanji. Another form of 杉 is 椙, but 杦 is not listed as another form.Even the most detailed Chinese character dictionaries don’t give a meaning for 杦, they just list it as an isolated character purely used for its sound. But then again, I might be barking up the wrong tree and in this specific case 杦 is a Kokuji only used in Japan as a variant of 杉 ... Quote
george trotter Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 quote="Nobody" 杉 Guido san, I'm not sure of the interchangeability of the two kanji either, but I am only referring to the first one here. The 2 references I quoted in Hawley show this one and I think this Kanesugi mei in the OP is this kanji sugi, but just written with a personal flourish in the bottom right stroke by the smith. I do not think it is any other variation of writing it, or any other kanji...it is this sugi IMHO. I may be wrong of course, but this is my opinion...I would like to see more pics to see if it matches the work/period of Bungo Kanesugi. Regards, Quote
Cello Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Posted January 30, 2012 I will try my best to get some pics up after work today... Quote
Cello Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 George here are the pictures I promised late night at work today.....I looks to me like a Itame/masame-hada it seems prettty pronounced not sure what itbwould be called ..?What type of boshi would this be,And if this is the kanesugi mentioned was he a well rated smith? Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Guido, to be more precise, my electronic dictionary gives no Chinese root for it, and further adds, 杉の崩れたもの Quote
george trotter Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Hi Marcello, Thanks for posting the pics. Amazing...another member Luis has just posted an identical mei on another thread...is it the same sword?......just a coincidence? Regards, Quote
Cello Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 It seems someone went on the board last night to post during an estate sale of a sword that I ended up purchasing small world....lol Quote
george trotter Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Amazing. Anyway, your sword looks interesting, seems in good condition from the pics. You will have to research a bit but it looks worth the effort IMHO...if I am right about the name/kanji and this is Kanesugi from Bungo 1868, then that is where I'd start my research...maybe start by reading about the Bungo characteristics (maybe late shinto Takata characteristics etc?)...I can't really tell...but ....maybe some members are knowledgeable on Bungo work and can either confirm or reject this as a possibility? What are the fittings? Regards, Quote
Cello Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 Yes something about this one felt nice to me for a shinshinto piece.it seemed to me to have a very pleasing balanced form.it's in a nice gusto mount with a grazing bullet hit which pierced the tsuba and ever so slightly nicked the slightest edge of the blade a very close call . I wonder if the owner was as lucky! Quote
george trotter Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 That is an interesting piece of history...I'm glad the blade wasn't damaged. Maybe if you find some definite information on Kanesugi, you could post it here...I wish you luck, unfortunately my experience has been that many of these minor or regional makers are almost unknown...at least you have a clue from Hawley...I have 2 swords completely unknown/unrecorded....(but I keep searching). Good luck. Quote
Cello Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 Would anyone be able to post the listing in hawley kan2295.I'm pretty new to the art compared to most on this board,is the large wood grain difficult to produce or would a more sublte style be the harder of the two to achieve and does this fit the Bungo style I'm a little confused as to the charicteristics of hada for a bungo sword and in general... Quote
george trotter Posted February 1, 2012 Report Posted February 1, 2012 Hi Marcello, Here is the entry for Kanesugi (KAN 2295.1). Ref: 'Japanese Swordsmiths Revised' 1981 WM Hawley (Supplement p. 1044). The reference to the earlier Kanesugi of 1532 (KAN 2295) is in the general text on page 216 but he is not your guy) I can't guarantee this Kanesugi is your guy, but I think it is. The sword seems to have the three characteristics listed in Hawleys...Itame, Suguba and Komidare...you also have some wide Masame. In regards the widely spaced masame, I have seen an identical spacing of ayasugi hada on a Gassan Sadayoshi 1848, but as to whether it is easy/hard to produce I don't know...but I must say that by late Edo...Meiji...Taisho period the workmanship and styles may have "variations" IMHO...I think your sword may come from this late/modern period. You will have to do your research. The characteristics of Bungo are listed in many works which describe Takata/Bungo etc. You will find info on styles and schools etc in Nagayana's book "Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" and others. Just a note on sources...A lot of members here criticise Hawley, but his is the only work where I found a reference. In all my Japanese works there is no mention of a Kanesugi signing like yours (which just says that my Japanese library is incomplete). This is the ONLY link I have found, so in cases like this, it proves that it is wise to have as many sources as possible. Hawley (or more properly his translator Yasu Kizu) must have obtained this information from a Japanese source, so maybe those members who openly discourage new members from buying a Hawleys could check their superior sources and post additional information for you? Hope this helps, Regards, Quote
cabowen Posted February 1, 2012 Report Posted February 1, 2012 George- This smith is indeed listed in the Nihonto Meikan..... Quote
george trotter Posted February 1, 2012 Report Posted February 1, 2012 Oh, Hi Chris...I don't have that, maybe that's where Hawley sourced his info...I'm sure Marcello would be pleased to know what it says? Thanks, Quote
Cello Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Posted February 1, 2012 Thanks George I really appreciate the great information you've given me. I must admit I've been quite laxed in developing my personal library I can see that I will have to get many more reference books.Yes I would be great to know what you have found on Kanesugi Chris, you've always been a great help to me here.... Quote
cabowen Posted February 1, 2012 Report Posted February 1, 2012 It says the same thing the Hawley entry says without the construction details....Most of Hawley's came from the Meikan. Then they simply added everything else. It was never properly edited so you end up with multiple entries for the same smith. Quote
Stegel Posted February 2, 2012 Report Posted February 2, 2012 Hi Cello, You have a very interesting and nice blade, I've been reading this thread with great interest, and have a guess at the mei or smith. To me it looks like Kanenaga (with a poor 2nd kanji- one stroke missing/extra? it looked better on the other page than here) 兼永 I had alook and the only one i could find with masame mentioned was KAN1650, but there were several who apparently signed with the 2 Kanji's. Perhaps some more experienced members could confirm or reject, any more than this is out of my league, sorry, i'm just trying to get involved and learn also. It must be love, (of nihonto) to see so much effort and activity from so many senior members Guido, George, John and Chris is helping guys out on almost a daily basis. Please accept my apologies Chris, take my hat off to you all, great effort. I'm looking forward to find out who the correct smith is! Ernst Quote
george trotter Posted February 2, 2012 Report Posted February 2, 2012 I'm looking forward to find out who the correct smith is! Ernst Yes Ernst, me too...so far a number of us have put forward possibilities as to what the mei says (our opinions based on our reading skills and quality of library), and since our opinions vary quite a bit Marcello must be a bit confused by now...perhaps some of the inai could give their responses so Marcello can maybe start his research in a firm name/school/period. Of course this may be one of those cases where we all disagree...then of course Marcello has extra work to find out who he is....but don't be discouraged Marcello, I have two swords with unlisted smiths...but I never give up trying to identify them. Thanks for your kind words Ernst. Chris, other than the listing of the earlier Kanesugi of Tembun period in Tosho Zenshu p.65, my Japanese sources have nothing. Only my Hawleys has the Bungo Kanesugi of 1868, which seems to have come from the Meikan. It is good that the Meikan has him, which proves? he existed. Would logic say that if Meikan does not have a listing for the other readings of this kanji as suggested by members, then the strongest likelyhood is that he is the Kanesugi with the sanbonsugi no sugi? PS I know that Hawley sometimes has a smith listed more than once, but I did not know that Hawley "simply added everything else"...do you mean that apart from the basic name, place and date he got from Japanese sources he "invented" details? Regards, Quote
Stegel Posted February 2, 2012 Report Posted February 2, 2012 i forgot to mention the good effort from Piers and Moriyama San ! Cheers Ernst Quote
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