Please help identify sword inherited from grandfather, WW2

[UrQuattro]

Hey all,

 

Firstly, I'm brand new here and this is my first post. I really hope I chose the right forum. I was referred here from bladeforums. I really appreciate your help with this.

 

So, the story behind this sword from what I remember is that, when my grandfather was in ww2 as a member of the navy, he got it in Japan. Supposedly he pulled it off of a dead guy, but I kinda figure that story is more than slightly embellished.*

 

It was passed down to my father from him and a few years ago, down to me.*

 

Unfortunately, it's condition isn't particularly good. The blade has chips on the edge of the tip, and black spots of corrosion on it. The edge is quite sharp, able to cut through paper and such like my higher end new knives.

 

I know a little bit about swords, but not much at all.*

 

I looked at the tang (I know there should be another name for it) and found no markings that would be signatures. The original rust is there and hasn't been cleaned off. There are two holes in it, one is where the small bamboo "dowel"goes. It's been removed before, poorly I might add, and the ink that was on it is no longer present.*

 

The whole scabbard and handle is made of bamboo it seems, but I'm not sure.*

 

Anyway, Id REALLY LOVE to find out what it says on the sheath. Oh, and it appears to have a tanto tip, and the full length of the sword from the tip to the end of the handle is almost 36"...

 

I'll post a few pics. I hope someone can give me info about it's origin, history, the message written on it and I suppose if there is any monetary value, though I can tell you that it's sentimental value is ginormous. I have it mounted on the wall above the door to my bedroom, where I can see it as I fall asleep at night. Hehe.*

 

Thanks in advance.*

 

This one is in the sheath with a measuring tape

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... easure.jpg

 

 

This is with it off:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... easure.jpg

 

Here is a closeup of the grind of the tip:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tantogrind.jpg

 

The writing on the handle:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... riting.jpg

 

First part of writing on sheath:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... riting.jpg

 

Second section of writing on sheath:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... riting.jpg

 

"left" side of Nagato along with a tape measure for scale:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangmeasure.jpg

 

 Here's the other side:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangright.jpg

 

A closeup view:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangclose.jpg

 

The Nagato with handle:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... sheath.jpg

 

The spine:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangback.jpg

 

 

That's it, folks. The only other place I can think of a signature being is under the brass part. But i don't have the skill or courage for that - if it's possible anyway. 

 

I hope that these are enough. 

 

Thanks in advance to everyone. 

 

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Some more info about my grandfather during the war. I going a comic he drew as a letter to my grandmother, I noticed on the cartoon he drew, dated may 16, 1944, on the U. S. S. Kitkun Bay. It's mission was to the Mariana and palaua Islands campaign. Also the Phillipines Campaign, battle off samar, operation magic carpet.

 

It ended up in Japan in '46 in th hakkaido and Honshu to take on pow's, along with having a few Japanese planes crashing on it's deck prior to that.

 

Michael

[k morita]

Hi,

The Kanji characters on the sheath are owner's mailing addresses and a name.

 

(address):

85 Aza-Mizuguchi,Kubota,Fukuyama town,

Azumi county,Fukushima prefecture.

(This old address is in Koriyama city,Fukushima now.)

 

(owner's name): Abe(famly name) Suekichi(given name).

[UrQuattro]

Wow, that is one big mystery solved now. My dad had always wondered, too, what was written on it.

 

Thank you so much! I do have to sayy though, that knowing the name and address of the former owner, and knowing it is written on the case, is a little sobering. It really makes it a lot more "personal" ya know? Before, I thought that my grandfather probably bought it and had our family name put on it, but I guess not.

 

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Okie, so, now that the translation is done, can anyone help me out with the blade itself?

 

There was a bit of skepticism on bladeforums regarding the authenticity of the sword itself, and possibly the case, thinking that it could be a chinese knockoff. The person thought that the patina of the rust on the tang looked faked. But I know that my grandfather brought it back from Japan and the war, so there must be some level of authenticity to it.

 

So, I'm really hoping that someone who looks in this topic can maybe help out in that department. I am puzzled by the lack of a maker's mark, as every other one seems to have them.

 

I'd love to hear about the vintage... I don't expect it to be older than the war, of course, but ya never know. Also, I would really like to get it restored, but I know that doing that right is an expensive process. I don't want to put a bunch of money in to restoring a "fake" sword. So if anyone has an estimate on value, I'd be most appreciative.

 

I have zero intentions of ever selling it, but when I end up passing it down, I'd like to have it in worthy condition. So, yah. That's about it.

 

Thanks again in advance, I really appreciate it.

 

Michael

[kusunokimasahige]

Hi Michael,

 

On the story your grandfather pulled it off a dead person i can say this: not likely at all. The sword is in what you call a Shirasaya, which generally is a wooden sheath in which swords which are unmounted are kept for storage as well as to keep the polish nice because normal wear in a mounting with scabbard could damage the polish. Such a shirasaya would not likely have been used in any battle condition. The sword, if coming from a Japanese officer, would have been in its original mounts.

 

The questions people pose at the originality of the blade might have something to do with the tip of the sword appearing to have been altered. The rust on the Nakago i am not sure about since to me it does not look bad. Why anyone would want to mount a fake sword in an original shirasaya is beyond me.

 

The address is interesting though research into the original owner at this time is virtually impossible seeing the disaster which has befallen Fukushima.

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

KM

[UrQuattro]

That's interesting that you mention the tip, as that is one of the issues that the other gentleman had.

 

What is it about the tip that is different? Can you think of why someone would change the original shape, or maybe it's that that is it's original shape and maybe was made by a lesser wordsmith, or it was a mistake?

 

I hate to ask again, but do you think it is worth it to have it restored and polished up properly. This sword is lacking that wavy line (I know there is a term for it) that I see on all of the other swords I've looked at. I know that was a function of the usage of different kinds of steel, and is characteristic to the maker.

 

It does seem logical that it is a real Japanese sword, I never really thought otherwise. I just dont know if the monetary value is around a hundred bucks, or if by default of being "real," it is worth much more.

 

I also don't know if it is a good thing to leave it as is, or have it professionally restored. Is it better with the spots of corrosion and lack of fine polish, or would it be better to try to bring it back to original condition.

 

Again, thank you for the information. Before you guys responded, I had nothing, now I'm finally learning about it.

 

Michael

[Grey Doffin]

I see little reason to call this a fake; looks about right to me. The tip (kissaki) has been altered clumsily; this is because the tip was broken sometime after the sword was made. Can't be sure from the pictures but my gut says this sword was made during WWII.

Before you rush to restoration, which will cost at least $2K if you have it done right, you should have it looked at by someone who can tell you if it warrants the effort and expense. Restoration won't protect the sword from further damage; it will only return it to close to the original appearance. If the sword were to be polished chances are that the shira-saya would have to be replaced and it doesn't seem likely that you would like to lose that part of the sword's history. It may be best for you to leave it as is.

Grey

[Lee Bray]

Hi Michael.

Just so everyone is aware, I'm the fella expressing scepticism toward this blade on the other forum.

 

Regarding the tip and the wavy line(hamon); the hamon curves around the tip of the sword following the sharp edge to some degree. This is called the Boshi. Should the tip sustain damage for some reason, when it is repaired, this boshi is decreased and obviously it can never be replaced. Therefore professional polishers take great care restoring the tip.

Your sword doesn't show that care, unfortunately.

Compare the shape of your kissaki(tip) with the sword in the link I provided on the other forum.

Go to the home page of that site and find other swords to compare kissaki shape. You'll see what I mean.

[Lee Bray]

Grey - I'm also dubious about the nakago - shape, patina and the mekugi ana(peg holes).

Overall shape of the sword and the way it fits the shirasaya seem a little suspect to me as well, but it's only my opinion.

 

My 'gut' says fake sword fitted to a good shirasaya or possibly a real sword very poorly 'restored'.

I hope I'm wrong.

[UrQuattro]

Huh,

 

So, it seems to be either a poor repair job on a sword, or a "fake" in a real case.

 

So... Here's the quandary. Knowing that it DEFINITELY was obtained by my grandfather during the war, who was making fakes then?

 

And what is it about the fit that strikes you as wrong? When I slide thhe blade into the case, it fits perfectly when the brass part slides in to place.

 

Its never been touched by anyone to clean it up or anything once he brought it home, so any work on it would have had to take place prior to that.

 

As far as the holes for the peg? What is suspicious about it? I'm obviously very interested intrying to figure this thing out and know what I have.

 

I really, really appreciate all of your help with this. Thank you.

 

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Oh, and I was just going through my pictures of the sword.

 

The picture of the handle next to the tang looks funny because the "right" side of the sword is face up while the "left" side of the handle is face up, making it look like the curvature is all off.

 

Does that change any minds?

 

Michael

[UrQuattro]

I just took a few more pictures of the naked blade and the shirasaya next to it:

 

The full picture of both

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... casing.jpg

 

This is a closeup on the tang next to the full shirasaya

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001 ... sheath.jpg

 

Here's the closeup of the tang with the handle next to it, this time the sides arent reversed:

http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tang_handle.jpg

 

 

Hopefully these will help a little more. Also, under bright lighting, the rust is not as dense as I thought. You can see some glimpses of the steel through it, on both sides, but I couldn't really capture it with my iPhone, which is all I'm working with here. My computer isn't working. So I'm sorry if the shots aren't clear.

 

Thanks for your continued interest.

 

Michael

[kusunokimasahige]

Michael, it would be better if you took close up pictures of the Nakago and parts of the blade, also remove the habaki *copper sleeve* from the sword when taking pictures of the blade.

 

Also please post them on something like photobucket since the pictures you post on that apple site are way too small for the people on this board to make sound judgements.

 

KM

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lee,

I also wondered about the mekugi-ana; they are too small. My guess is this was originally mounted in military mounts with the top ana and then in the shira-saya with the bottom ana. The off size ana are the main reason I think this is a war time blade; gunto don't always conform. Given Michael's knowledge that this left Japan after the war with his grandfather it doesn't make sense to think it's a Chinese fake that just miraculously happened to fit an older Japanese shira-saya. By default, I guess real.

Grey

[UrQuattro]

Okay, if it will help, I can remove the brass sleeve (I'm sorry I'm really slow on the pickup of the terms for everything).

 

I figure that it can be removed, but I don't know how to do it. And I'm worried about damaging it or the blade. I'm concerned that the rust has caused it to seize on there.

 

But if it isn't that bad, I am very mechanically inclined, so, how do I remove it.

 

And I'm sorry about the pictures, I can set up a photobucket account, or I can email the full sized ones to someone that could post for me.

 

Michael

[Bruno]

I am not sure of what I am going to say, but it seems that the habaki is too big and does not fit well the nakago.

 

I would dare to add that the blade has been reshaped to fit the shirasaya and a second hole pierced in the reshaped nakago to fit the handle.

 

I am often wrong (if not always!) but...

[UrQuattro]

Ok... I'm confused. I was told on another board that the shurisaya is not the valuable part, so why go through the trouble of reshaping a blade.

 

In the shurisaya, there is a small area that is larger and is shaped to receive the brass collar, which then stabilizes the blade in place, with no movement.

 

It's just sounding like a lot of effort to forge a WW2 blade DURING WW2...

 

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Alright, I just put the pictures up on photobucket.

 

Here's the link to the album. With a little bonus pic of me driving my '81 Porsche 911 on the track at infineon recently.

 

 

http://s1135.photobucket.com/albums/m62 ... napbucket/

 

I'm still only iPhone, so I don't know if the pics are of a decent size. If they are still not good, I can email the raw ones, which are a couple megs each to someone, and that would solve the size problem.

 

:-)

 

Michael

[Mark Green]

Michael,

 

The new pics didn't help much. You need some good pics, with a camera.

To me, it looks like a china made sword. It has the classic bad kissaki, and the very common looking nakago, with very drilled small holes, bad habaki.

At best, I would say, very late war, bad polish, or just plain altered in some way. It is just too difficult to say from these pics.

It is very unlikely that any Japanese soldier was fighting with this in a shira saya. They are not made to be used in a fight.

But, I suppose anything is possible.

Some close pics of the blade, and that kissaki area, should clear it right up. Find someone with a camera, of even a non iPhone, cell. Those iPhone seem to have the worst cameras.

Mark G

 

Just looking closely at the saya pics, I would say the sori on the saya is much more then the sword. I wouldn't think this saya was made for this sword. IMHO

[Curgan]

Hi Michael,

 

welcome to the forum and the world of nihonto.

 

As for the sword...

 

Ignoring the pictures, my guess would still be a chinese fake. The holes on the tang (mekugi ana) are very small and too close to the habaki. I don't see how a mekugi (bamboo peg) could pass diagonaly through. This way there is no room for a guard and the kashira, if the sword is going to be mounted, but still can be outfitted to a shirasaya. No Japanese smith or mounter would do such a mistake.

 

I still might be wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it...

[UrQuattro]

So you guys are saying that in ww2, my grandfather obtained, somehow (I never believed the fact that he got it from a soldier), in Japan, a sword in a real casing, but a fake chinese sword?

 

I just seem to not be able to make sense of that...

 

When did china start producing fakes of the Japanese katanas?

 

Could this be the sword of a civilian from Japan? I don't know...

 

It seems that a bunch of you think it's real and a bunch don't.

 

I dunno what to think.

 

Michael

[cabowen]

I don't believe this is a Chinese copy, what I do think it is an amateur work made perhaps in a colony or the like during the war. As others have noted, the tip has been damaged and crudely reshaped. The nakago (tang) is crudely finished with mekugi-ana (holes) done in a way that only an amateur would...

[kaigunair]

My $0.02....

 

While I think the saya is good, I'm not too sure about the blade also, esp the shape of the holes, and what looks like a loose fitting habaki (colar). What I think *may* have happened is that at sometime in the past, your grandfather might have taken the sword to someone for an appraisal. The "expert" making that appraisal may have said he needed to hold on to the blade, and changed out the original blade for a knockoff.

 

So, better pics are necessary, and you might want to research if it was ever taken into for an "appraisal"....

[UrQuattro]

The collar is not loose at all, actually.

 

And trust me, my grandfather would not have, and never did take it to someone for an appraisal. To him, it was just a souvenir from the war, not something that was monetarily valuable.

 

I know that some places will switch the blade. But that never happened here. This is the same blade and shirasaya that came back with him from the war.

 

The only person that has ever been interested in the history and value of this sword in my family is me, actually.

 

After coming back from the war, my grandfather became a cop in san Francisco, and died at the age of fifty. My dad was an assistance district attorney for san Francisco. I'm the only one who didnt go in to law.

 

Having said that, knowing the reputation of my grandfather as just a "bit" of a racist, the value to him of the sword would have been that "we" won and "they" lost.

 

Michael

[kaigunair]

If you're still in the San Francisco bay area, the NorCal Jpn Sword club is meeting this sunday at the JCCNC center in japantown. They moved their meeting to this week due to the Far Side race last week. Bring it there and I'm sure they can help you out.

 

http://www.ncjsc.org/

[UrQuattro]

Hey,

 

I am still in san Francisco, so thank you so much! I should be able to make it, and once I do, I'll post here about what people think in person.

 

Michael

[kaigunair]

how did it go? I wasn't able to make it down in time for the meeting, but I was around J-town for lunch....