Advice for collecting Tosogu

[toru]

Hello everyone I am new to collecting nihonto and while I would love to collect Japanese swords at this point I lack sufficient funds and would like to begin with fittings. As such I would like advice on beginning a tosogu collection.

 

First is it considered improper to display fittings that did not originate together. Such as separately purchased handle tsuba and saya?

 

Display advice I know there a wooden inserts that can act as replacements of a true blade for display.

 

Advice on telling fakes?

 

Books and any other advice

 

Thanks for helping a beginner

 

Toru

[Soshin]

 

Advice on telling fakes?

 

Books and any other advice

 

Thanks for helping a beginner

 

Toru

 

Hi Toru,

 

I would first focus on the information and resources on this website first outside of the forum. There are some good information and sales sites in the links section of this website. I would then search the forum for any specific questions you might have via the use of keywords. I would do some web-surfing, reading, and research first. Try to join a semi-local club or go to some shows and see some real antique fittings before you purchase anything. Once you have did some research, looked at some antique Japanese sword fittings I would purchase a piece either from the sales forum or from a dealer found in the links page. Once you do purchase share it for discussion which I found to be a good learning experience.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Marius]

Hello everyone I am new to collecting nihonto and while I would love to collect Japanese swords at this point I lack sufficient funds and would like to begin with fittings. As such I would like advice on beginning a tosogu collection.

 

First is it considered improper to display fittings that did not originate together. Such as separately purchased handle tsuba and saya?

 

Display advice I know there a wooden inserts that can act as replacements of a true blade for display.

 

Dear Toru,

 

Welcome to the Forum :D

 

I think your approach is somewhat flawed. Collecting kododgu because you cannot afford nihonto is not the right motivation - your fittings would be an ersatz for the "real thing" and consequently, your studies would never be serious or give you the fun it gives to seriously interested collectors. I dare say that it looks as if you were driven mainly by the desire to "touch" what you see as the quintessential manifestation of "samurai culture" and since you cannot afford a blade, you hope to get exposure through the purchase of fittings. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

 

Collecting is a learning process. It is about studying, not indiscriminate accumulation. Studying is the real fun here. Studying does not necessary mean that you will become a "Fachidiot". If you want to understand fittings, you have to learn Japanese history, mythology, tales and many other aspects of Japan's culture. You may end up falling in love with the Japanese woodblock prints :-) It is a fascinating process and it requires an extensive library so be prepared to spend more on books than on fittings, at least in the first few years. The other way is to ignore all this and just start buying whatever you like and can afford. You will end up with a pile of rubbish that you will not even be able to resell without a loss, just when you need the money when something really good comes along (if in the meantime you have learned to tell the good from mediocre, that is).

 

Just as it is with blades, fittings vary dramatically in terms of quality. Good kodogu are as expensive as quite good blades. Masterpieces cost as much as Juyo blades.

 

Although a blade was meant to be used in a koshirae, they are separate elements. Consequently, to study fittings is a different matter than to study blades. You buy different books, written by different scholars.

 

You need to start with quite a few books to decide what to pursue. That is, unless you just want to buy some haphazardly assembled koshirae with crappy kodogu (available en masse on eBay), put it on a stand and amaze your friends, who will think you have a real "samurai sword". In such case, advice is not needed.

 

I hope you will not offended - I simply do not know what your motivation is and this forum is for those who seek knowledge and not for those who can't wait to lay their hands on a "real samurai sword" (and possibly try it out cutting cardboard). Sorry for the sarcasm, I have seen enough of the latter type.

 

To answer your two questions: you can display whatever you like. But assembling a haphazard koshirae from parts which do not fit together in terms of aesthetics and quality is bad. Displaying such a thing will only testify to the ignorance of its owner.

 

The insert you refere to is called tsunagi. When you buy a good sword in koshirae, the sowrd should be stored in a shirasaya, while the koshirae is held together by a tsunagi - a wooden replica of the blade, with a wooden habaki.

[Ford Hallam]

Thank you, Mariusz

 

Personally I was quite dismayed to read that fitting could be seen as the poor relations, mere trinkets! to blades.

 

I suppose big shiny sharp things are more like boys toys though and so much easier to "appreciate" on a superficial level alone. That's not to say they aren't appreciated on more sophisticated levels also.

[sanjuro]

Ford.

 

I am tempted here to remind you that if it wasnt for the 'big shiny sharp things', that your 'mere trinkets' would not exist, nor have a reason to exist. However, being a gentleman of sensibility and an admirer of tosugu as well as the 'big shiny sharp things', I shall restrain myself from making such a comment.

[toru]

Well I admit not exactly the warm greeting or answers I was hoping to get. But I suppose it has a grain of truth. I admit I am not an avid collector who plans on dedicating years of study before starting to collect. I am also not someone idiotic enough to take an antique historical sword into the back yard to chop junk. I am in between (closer to the avid collector) I have admired nihonto for years, picked up a couple of books on nihonto, know some of the stories and mythologies hearing them growing up, taken Japanese classes and have an ever growing amount of pride in my Japanese heritage. I feel Nihonto will be an excellent bridge between my love of art and my pride in my Japanese heritage. As a young and perhaps immature person I feel the desire to begin acquiring a piece I am sorry but I won't lie, I think there is nothing like owning something to appreciate it. This sadly is a unfortunate thought process many in my very materialistic generation. I am a college student and currently lack the time or money to match the expert collectors here and I thought Tosogu starting more accessible to a young person such as myself, and yet sharing with the blade the aspects of being beautiful works of art full of a rich history might be a way for me to own a piece of Japanese history. I am sorry if some here find this wrong or offensive. I am sorry if I am not as dedicated as some on here at this point in my life BUT I guarantee they won't ever be mere trinkets in my eyes!

 

Toru

[sanjuro]

Toru.

 

Please dont take what is being said and my own somewhat obscure humour as a personal affront. We encourage your interest in nihonto and whatever branch of collecting you feel most drawn to. I think what is emerging in the comments made is that it is felt you are drawn to tosogu only as a defacto to the more expensive collecting of swords per se. I can see your reasoning but what has been said about accumulating low end pieces is correct. Better to own one decent piece than a hundred insignificant examples. It is about quality rather than quantity either with tosogu or with blades.

To do this sensibly one must save and suffer to some extent the pains of accumulating knowledge. May I suggest you aim at the ownership of a reasonably good fully mounted tanto. This will give you the tactile experience of ownership and closer appreciation of both blade and tosogu. From there you may then progress toward either stream of collecting without the original piece losing its relevance.

 

Just a thought

[Lorenzo]

I am tempted here to remind you that if it wasnt for the 'big shiny sharp things', that your 'mere trinkets' would not exist

 

I think this point is worth some further discussion, as it was matter of discussion on another board for the very same reason. Tousogu are often lowered as being only the frame of the picture; well I cannot see it the same way.

 

While is clear that without feet there would be any shoes, I still think that the way the sword was dressed was a very clear indication of one person status, tastes, and many other aspect difficult to sum to me in English. I am quite sure that fittings have been matter of appreciation between sword owner exactly as the swords in it.

[Ford Hallam]

Toru,

 

apologies if some of us seem a little brusque. I appreciate your honesty and trust you recognise that what was offered wasn't meant to be condescending towards you particularly. It's just that we do hear this sort of intention and desire expressed quite frequently and far too often advice is not heeded and money is simply thrown away where, with a little considered guidance and thought, wise investments can be made that will enrich your experience of the subject and provide a reliable stepping stone into a more sophisticated appreciation of the world of the Japanese sword.

 

Personally, I completely empathise with your desire to own a fine piece, one that you can enjoy and "get into". What I would strongly encourage is that that one piece you do manage to acquire be worthy of your money and focus. In that, it may provide a glimpse of the great qualities the best works exhibit.

 

If you have a budget perhaps some of our members might make some suggestions and reasons why a particular piece might "fit the bill" for you.

 

regards,

 

Ford

 

p.s. Keith, you're absolutely right! I'm sorry, I really should know my place.

[Marius]

Well I admit not exactly the warm greeting or answers I was hoping to get. (...) I have admired nihonto for years, picked up a couple of books on nihonto, know some of the stories and mythologies hearing them growing up, taken Japanese classes and have an ever growing amount of pride in my Japanese heritage. I feel Nihonto will be an excellent bridge between my love of art and my pride in my Japanese heritage.

 

Dear Toru,

 

everybody was a beginner and everybody had to listen to more experienced and somewhat cynical collectors. I am glad to hear that you treat our beloved objects of art with due respect I am confident that your love of art will guide you well in your new passion.

 

BTW, which answers of yours have not been addressed in a satisfactory manner? How to tell fake from real? That is tough one, as some fakes are remarkably well done. This is a mine field, and it is easy to loose money on reproductions. The members of this Forum are really helpful, so you are always welcome to come back with questions regarding this problem (and others as well).

[raven2]

I would like to say that answers that go out to new people often have an elitist ring to them. Marius, Toru was merely asking for some advice. I realize that many experienced people here have seen "too many" new people who are all too ready to rush in and buy the first thing they see. However, that is a natural reaction when you are getting into something new. Yes, it is a good thing to try and temper that reaction so they don't get taken by fakes and buying poor quality pieces and as we all know, studying and learning is of paramount importance. But I feel that the message being sent and the tone is a negative one. I have often heard "don't buy it just because you like it and it appeals to you". This really comes across as killing people's enthusiasm. One of the reasons to buy it is because it does appeal to you. Just because a person is new does not automatically mean that they are just going to buy junk. People don't always make bad decisions but that seems to be the assumption that is being made. I often read people here bemoaning the fact that there are so few new young people getting into nihonto and how can we attract more. Talking about garbage and junk is not the way to do that.

 

This all being said, welcome to the board Toru and please don't get discouraged, people here really do want to help you :D

[raven2]

Toru,

 

.

 

Personally, I completely empathise with your desire to own a fine piece, one that you can enjoy and "get into". What I would strongly encourage is that that one piece you do manage to acquire be worthy of your money and focus. In that, it may provide a glimpse of the great qualities the best works exhibit.

 

 

Ford

 

p.s. Keith, you're absolutely right! I'm sorry, I really should know my place.

 

Toru,

 

I also empathise with that feeling and agree with Ford. Take your time and get a quality piece. You will find it much more rewarding than trying to buy something cheaply and quickly. A good piece will also give you the chance of getting your money back, should you decide to part with it. Remember, you are never wrong getting quality.

[Marius]

apologies if some of us seem a little brusque.

 

I am just a paltry imitation of Reinhardt

[Grey Doffin]

Toru,

If you live in The States you would do well to attend one of the 3 or 4 sword shows that occur every year. There you will be able to ask questions about specific pieces, get opinions, and learn much more than you would if you were to buy a piece online.

If you're in Europe you might try to find a club with meetings you could attend. If in Japan there are no end of opportunities for you. If you live elsewhere you need to buy books and study.

Grey

[Rich S]

I must enter the fray :-) There is absolutely nothing wrong with just collecting/studying kodogu. I know several very serious collectors who don't even own a sword. Personally when swords went thru the roof, price wise; I turned my attention more toward tsuba (I had always acquired a few). I find it a very enjoyable and complicated study; perhaps more so than blades.

 

As far as displaying tsuba, I have a few on stands but most are in tsuba boxes and rotate them occasionally.

 

My basic philosophy is: collect what you like, but like what you collect.

 

Rich S

[Ruben]

Hi Toru,

 

few years ago I was in your situation.

 

I finished scool and got some money from my granny .

In the meantime I realy felt in love with "art swords", never gave too much attention to tosogu.

I allways had the wish to own a katana or tachi as many newcomer.

At this time I realy had no expertise. (Still now I´am very newbiesh. )

One day I found a interesting hefty mumei katana on ebay, it was about 2000 dollars or so.

I purchased it, shure I was taken in little bit by the seller (cause of pitting on the blade at a small area), but all in all I can say its a very very interesting studypiece and I would never sell it again.

Maybe it was just luck in my case, but on the other hand I developed a kind of taste.

Only now my eyes slowly learn to observe, cause its a realy difficult piece with very tight hada.

Being a member in this lovely forum is allways a good way to go

 

Greetings!

 

Ruben

[Pete Klein]

Toru -- Would going to a sword show be possible for you? I do not know where you live so I cannot make a recommendation.

[Marius]

I am afraid that Toru has just disappeared. I have sent him a PM (unread) plus an email with a list of books. No reply, no "thank you", no "buzz off, I don't need your advice" or any other reply. I am afraid we have wasted our time here.