My sword from Aoi Art

[alsanjuro]

Hi everyone this is my first post here. I have already one antique nihonto and it is in perfect condition which i bought from Ted Tenold (Legacy Arts). But i recently received a blade which was made in the early Edo period from Aoi Art and was wondering if you could give me some help with these blade flaws and if I should be concerned about them. I will put a link to my flickr account.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8187943@N0 ... 055532965/

 

I am not happy that when i got the blade to find out that it had these flaws. When i looked at the blade pics on their site and info it didnt mention any of these. I do like the blade since its a bit thicker and heavier than my first. Could someone please give me some sort of piece of mind on the blade. You must excuse me this is my first attempt at taking photos of any sword.

 

Thank You

[cabowen]

It is hard to believe that none of that was visible in the photos on Aoi's site.....

 

The blade appears to be done in masame, which is very prone to kitae ware. That being said, the rough, open areas in the shinogi-ji are quite excessive and perhaps the result of poor forging and/or repeated polishing.

 

I believe Tsuruta san had a return policy in the past. If that is still the case, I would take advantage of it......

[Ford Hallam]

I wonder if this in't a saiha (retempered blade). The very coarse grain and the way the hamon dips off just before the habaki makes me suspicious.

 

Could we see the nakago also plaese? , especially the area around the habaki.

[Hinawaju]

Hi,

You may return the sword for any reason. Only it is done within one week.

regards,

Guy R.

[Lee Bray]

Knowing Aoi Art's photo's well, I'd agree with Chris and say that these flaws would have been visible in the sites original pictures.

Having also just taken a naginata to the same shop for polishing with the same flaws in the shinogiji(open masame grain), I know that Tsuruta-san is not fond of this kind of flaw but was still in agreement that the rest of the blade was healthy enough to take a new polish and also a reliable candidate for Hozon shinsa.

The naginata is by Sumimiya, 1600's, for reference.

 

In my case, the blade is 400 yrs old, still has, what I think is, a near original sugata(big, big kissaki and ubu nakago) but the masame hada in the shinogiji is open. I'm happy to live with that. I know others wouldn't be.

If you're not, try asking Aoi Art for a return, as suggested.

[Grey Doffin]

Chris said appears to be masame and Ford said might be retempered. When a sword is retempered, itame hada tends to turn into masame hada.

I agree that at least some of this must have been visible in the pictures on Aoi Art, and I also agree that the blade has worse than minor problems and that retemper might be the cause.

Grey

[cabowen]

When a sword is retempered, itame hada tends to turn into masame hada.

 

Don't quite follow you there Grey, how is that possible?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

When i looked at the blade pics on their site and info it didnt mention any of these.

 

Was it listed into the "Iaido" section ?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Chris,

Some years back I wrote an article for the JSS/US Newsletter on retemper and signs of such. I can't remember the source of the itame into masame theory, but I do remember it being a Japanese source that had been translated into English. The source didn't say how or why the transformation happened so I can't help you there. I'm sure I read this, though. Maybe if I get some time later I'll check the Index for articles about retemper and see if I can find it again.

Anyone else heard this before?

Grey

[cabowen]

I wonder if something was lost in the translation as as far as I know there is no physical force possible created reheating a blade that is going to reconfigure the forged in welding pattern....

[Grey Doffin]

Aha! The Gods are smiling on me tonight; found it.

In Volume 28, No. 4, of the JSS/US "Newsletter", on page 25 is an article by Dr. Bob Lewert entitled, "From the Files". The article starts, "Friday, November 3, 1972 at the Dallas Shinsa, Lecture by Dr. Kanzan Sato, John Yumoto translating.

Now, to quote from the article, a section in which Dr. Sato is discussing retemper: "Also the characteristic of the grain of the blade will change. If it previously had been itame, it will have a tendency to become masame grain. In retempering the blade, it isn't just a matter of putting another coat of clay on and retempering, but rather they will also heat and hammer the blade again. This gives rise to the masa formation in the grain of the steel."

Grey

[cabowen]

Grey-

 

Thanks for the source...I would beg to differ....

 

I have seen, from start to finish, the complete yaki-naoshi process performed at least a dozen times and never did I see much, if any, hammering on the blade. Maybe different smiths handle it differently, but....

 

If you think about it, how would hammering on the blade change itame or mokume into masame in the first place? The hada pattern depends on how the billet is folded and which face is used for the kawagane. By simply upsetting the hada you can in no way somehow straighten out curved weld lines.

 

Can you sand a flatsawn board into a quartersawn one?

[Grey Doffin]

Dr. Sato knew so much more than I ever will.

Grey

[cabowen]

Dr. Sato knew so much more than I ever will.

Grey

 

I will have to take your word on that but I think as a woodworker you know enough to know the answer to my question.....

[alsanjuro]

I did buy my sword from their iai section which cost me around $5500. My previous sword that i bought fron Ted Tenold was on from late edo period which originally came from Aoi art.

On the site it stated that blade was polished. I didn't wanna buy a blade that would need to repolish again since I live in Australia and over here we have no people with expertise in polishing blades. As everyone knows its not cheap to polish a blade. I have sent email to Tsuruta in regards to this issue. So i am hoping to get a reply soon.

Thanks to everyone for quick replies.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Chris,

Not sure that wood equates to steel or that sanding equates to retempering, but I am sure that I don't argue with the likes of Dr. Sato on the subject. Is it possible that all hada has elements of masame involved, even if it isn't apparent until after retempering has exploded the vulnerable grain? I know when I see a sword I think is retempered I often see open grain and that grain is usually masame like (by which I mean that it doesn't look like a natural masame). It could be that swords that originally were masame are most likely to exhibit open grain after retemper, but maybe other original grains show up with straight openings after retemper. The open grain of retemper is basically the same as ware' on an unretempered sword, and ware' tend towards straightness, regardless of the hada around them.

I don't know the answer (you don't have to take my word about me and Dr. Sato; I'm a newbie in comparison) but I do think it's an interesting question. Love to hear from others who might have something to add.

Grey

[Ford Hallam]

I think you're right, Grey, when you point out that all hada has an element of masame to them. If we consider that he actual material is worked up as a relatively short billet and then only once the steel is completely worked though and the grain established is it drawn out. There's the underlying linear alignment of the steel, whatever it's finer surface pattern. Re-tempering naturally involves bringing the steel up to a high enough temperature to cause a certain degree of steel oxidisation on the surface. You can think of this as a form of corrosion as Fe is consumed. It appears to be most noticeable along weld/fusion lines. This is what I think gives rise to this sort of excessively open and linear grain pattern.

[Kevin]

The hada pattern depends on how the billet is folded and which face is used for the kawagane. By simply upsetting the hada you can in no way somehow straighten out curved weld lines.

 

Can you sand a flatsawn board into a quartersawn one?

 

As a metalworker I was puzzled by the claim that you could change the hada by retempering. I honestly can't see how that would be possible, short of folding metal again. :?

 

Kevin

[kusunokimasahige]

Not knowing too much about metalwork or hada, i have seen cracks appearing in forged swords (not Nihonto but damascened/Damast blades ) which were retempered, and cracks being enlarged and multiplied as a result of quenching the hot metal in water which had the wrong temperature, too cold. That will stress the metal beyond repair.

 

One blade simply split open in several places.

 

KM

[cabowen]

 

As a metalworker I was puzzled by the claim that you could change the hada by retempering. I honestly can't see how that would be possible, short of folding metal again. :?

 

Kevin

 

My point exactly.

 

Forge welding creates a pattern in the steel very much like that in wood. It goes "through" the skin of the sword- there is no different "underlying linear alignment of the steel, whatever it's finer surface pattern". Sanding wood is analogous to polishing a sword. Hammering would actually create upsets/deformities that when polished would actually look like itame or mokume. It could also possibly open a weld

 

Now, if the claim was that yaki-naoshi tended to cause areas of masame grain inherent in the blade to open, I think that would be quite likely given the stresses imposed on the blade. But physically changing the welding pattern in the blade? Sorry, but my metallurgical education as an engineer and practical experience with swordsmiths won't allow me to accept that on blind faith even from the likes of Dr. Sato.

 

Perhaps something was lost in the original translation....

[Danocon]

Aha! The Gods are smiling on me tonight; found it.

In Volume 28, No. 4, of the JSS/US "Newsletter", on page 25 is an article by Dr. Bob Lewert entitled, "From the Files". The article starts, "Friday, November 3, 1972 at the Dallas Shinsa, Lecture by Dr. Kanzan Sato, John Yumoto translating.

Now, to quote from the article, a section in which Dr. Sato is discussing retemper: "Also the characteristic of the grain of the blade will change. If it previously had been itame, it will have a tendency to become masame grain. In retempering the blade, it isn't just a matter of putting another coat of clay on and retempering, but rather they will also heat and hammer the blade again. This gives rise to the masa formation in the grain of the steel."

Grey

 

 

I am going to have to wade in on this one.

 

1) I would not, nor would any other smith reforge the blade (hammer) to simply re-temper.

The process of re-tempering (actually re-hardening) is to heat the blade to critical temperature and let is cool slowly to allow the carbon to diffuse out and return the edge to austenite from martensite. Then it is re-clayed and Yakire is performed again. Re-hammering would require reshaping which would of course change the shape and remove material. It is lot of work to get the right shape, I for one would not want to do it again and ruin my beautiful shape

 

And even if they did, it would not change the basic grain structure.

 

2) The grain structure is formed in the foundation forging and subsequent forging into a sunobe (Blade preform)

 

Masame is created by foldng the billet and then turning it on its side so that edges of the layers are visible. Like looking at a ream of paper from the side.. The blade is then forged out. So the edges of the layers form the sides of the blade.

 

Itame is formed after folding by using the face of the billet (the writing side of the ream of paper) as the sides of the blade.

 

See http://meiboku.info/guide/form/hada/index.htm for pictures.

 

Masame is more prone to delamination because the weld joints are thin. Whatever the thickness of the blade is at any given cross section. Plus, forging on the edge stresses the welds by about a factor of 10 as opposed to forging on the face. The opportunity to break welds is huge. A well done masame with a no flaws is a grand feat of forging.

[John A Stuart]

I don't know how the welded structure could be changed by hammering a blade with out reforging the whole caboodle, basically starting over, but, I do remember this being discussed before. That being the case I am quite sure some reshaping is done to a heated blade to reduce sori before yakiire to prevent an exaggerated curvature, as sign of saiha we know. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I did buy my sword from their iai section .

 

That's why possibly the written info might have been "inadequate". These blades are intended to be practical ones, not for appreciation. Anyway I think the pics probably were adequate enough as they almost invariably are. I'm convinced Tsuruta san will do of his best to settle the matter.

[cabowen]

I don't know how the welded structure could be changed by hammering a blade with out reforging the whole caboodle, basically starting over, but, I do remember this being discussed before. That being the case I am quite sure some reshaping is done to a heated blade to reduce sori before yakiire to prevent an exaggerated curvature, as sign of saiha we know. John

 

 

There is, as I said, some minimal hammering to straighten the blade but it is not going to change the grain structure from one form to another......

[Ford Hallam]

Chris

 

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. The hada as seen on the suface of a polished blade is naturally very finely wrought. However, in drawing out the inital billet from which the blade is formed whatever patterning was created is elongated. No matter what hada pattern is created there will be a strong aspect of an elongated internal structure as a consequence of the billet being drawn out, that's what I meant by "linear alignment of the steel". It's this structure that seems to become prominent in re-tempered blades.

 

It may be that in drawing out the billet to the final length there is an increase in the strains between the welds that comprise the hada and as these strains will naturally be along the length to the blade it is possibly this that leads in the welds opening up in this way after sai-ha.

 

I don't think any of the Japanese authorities are suggesting anything more than that the appearance of the surface seems different not that it literally changes and reorganises itself.

[Grey Doffin]

Chris,

When you watched blades being retempered, were these receiving their 1st retemper or the 2nd? If they had been retempered before and were being done over to yield a better result, perhaps the hammering Dr. Sato mentions occurred on the 1st retemper and was necessary to correct either flaws or unnatural sori that resulted when the blade was burnt and the original hamon was lost. This hammering might have been more extensive than the limited amount you witnessed. Not saying this is so; just trying to get to an answer.

Please address another point I brought up. If a sword with itame hada has no masame to open up, why is it that we see itame swords with long tate-ware?

Grey

[cabowen]

Chris

 

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. The hada as seen on the suface of a polished blade is naturally very finely wrought. However, in drawing out the inital billet from which the blade is formed whatever patterning was created is elongated. No matter what hada pattern is created there will be a strong aspect of an elongated internal structure as a consequence of the billet being drawn out, that's what I meant by "linear alignment of the steel". It's this structure that seems to become prominent in re-tempered blades.

 

You are saying that by drawing out the blade there is a natural tendency for the "pattern" to be elongated....I agree. But there is no new welding so whatever was in the billet is what you end up with. If there is only mokume, you are not creating masame, only deformed mokume. A circle becomes an oval, etc....

 

It may be that in drawing out the billet to the final length there is an increase in the strains between the welds that comprise the hada and as these strains will naturally be along the length to the blade it is possibly this that leads in the welds opening up in this way after sai-ha.

 

Stress is relieved during the normalization that is done before yaki-ire. It is the yaki-ire process that creates new stresses, much of which is then relieved again during tempering (yaki-naoshi).

 

I don't think any of the Japanese authorities are suggesting anything more than that the appearance of the surface seems different not that it literally changes and reorganises itself.

 

That would be my guess as well.....

[cabowen]

Chris,

When you watched blades being retempered, were these receiving their 1st retemper or the 2nd? If they had been retempered before and were being done over to yield a better result, perhaps the hammering Dr. Sato mentions occurred on the 1st retemper and was necessary to correct either flaws or unnatural sori that resulted when the blade was burnt and the original hamon was lost. This hammering might have been more extensive than the limited amount you witnessed. Not saying this is so; just trying to get to an answer.

 

I have seen both new and old blades get re-tempered....You can not correct flaws in a finished blade by hammering on it, but the blade is subject to minimal hammering to change the sori, as I have said. Regardless, you can not pound on the surface of the blade and create masame hada, you can only deform whatever pattern is already present and deforming itame into masame is just not possible....

 

The above post explains what masame hada is- it is the billet on edge, just like quartersawn wood. Itame is the face of the billet, just like plainsawn wood. Pounding on the face will not rotate the edges of the billet outward or straighten curved weld lines.

 

And the above poster is correct as well about the skill needed to draw out a blade with masame hada due to the fact that you in effect hammering the welds apart, not together, as with itame hada. A flawless masame hada blade is indeed a testament to fantastic skill.

 

Please address another point I brought up. If a sword with itame hada has no masame to open up, why is it that we see itame swords with long tate-ware?

Grey

 

It helps to first explain how these patterns are made....When the billet is forged, the hammer compresses the steel. As these are folded, the layers get very thin, so thin that the hammer can actually upset layers, that is, the deformations it makes pierce layers. When folded and hammered, these "piercings" form the swirls and eyes seen in itame when polishing "plain saws" the blade. Also, when the smith is forge welding the billet, sometimes they will spot a blister in the steel from an incomplete weld or an impurity. They will drill this out before folding the billet again. This also creates swirls and eyes via the same mechanism as the hammer upsetting the layers...As an aside, ayasugi hada is a contrivance that exploits this phenomenon by drilling holes into the billet at regular intervals to artificially create a regular pattern of "upsets"...

 

The drawing out of the billet, as Ford has noted, stretches the steel and inevitably, there will be areas with rather straight grain around the eyes and swirls, thus Itame hada is a mix of straight and swirled sections and will always have straight sections. A ware follows a weld as the weld will give before the steel itself will crack, therefore there can be tate-ware in blades done in itame....

[alsanjuro]

At this moment i am waiting for a email reply from Mr Tsurata. Reason i bought a sword from Aoi was cause i heard many good things about the site and about their service. My first nihonto I bought from Legacy Arts(Ted Tenold) as i mentioned before was originally from Aoi which was on consignment on his site. Importing antiques into Australia arent cheap and plus i didnt wanna buy a sword which has no value. If I buy something for that much money i expect it to have that value when i get it. I have done some reasearch on if the blade has so many flaws its value would drop down.

[cisco-san]

I have sent email to Tsuruta in regards to this issue.

 

Keep us informed about Tsuruta-san answer...