First time buyer, advice needed

[mnedel]

Hello everyone,

Just wondering what you think about this sword http://www.aoi-art.com/iai/09486.html? I'm very new to this hobby but interested in making my first purchase. The sword would be used for display and some practice but nothing too stressful or demanding. Finances are a limiting factor. This price is the most I can afford. What do you think? Is this a worthy entry sword?

Thanks in advance

[raven2]

I am not very good at new swords, but it certainly looks like it would fill your requirements very well. Welcome

[Surfson]

Looks like a healthy sword, and fit for iaido. The only down side would be that it has very tight koitame (maybe even tending toward muji hada), and it is in suguha. In other words, it has minimal grain in the steel and little activity (some ko ashi) in the hamon so there won't be much to study and appreciate. All in all, a nice sword and maybe better to swing than to study. Good luck and welcome. Bob

[jeremy]

First of all, do you have an instructor to teach you how to swing the sword properly, and most of all, safely? If you don't have an instructor, you should seek one out. $4000 is a lot of money to fork out on a sword that you just want to swing around for fun. Also, length is another factor that comes into play when choosing a sword. This sword is 69.5cm which would probably be better suited to someone who is about 5 foot 2 to 5 foot 5 tall, for most mainstream iaido schools. I don't know how tall you are or your build, but i am 6 foot 2 and use a 80cm blade and study Toyama Ryu/ Nakamura-ha.

 

Personally speaking, I would have saved thousands of $$$ if I had waited to listen to my senseis advice on picking out a suitable sword. It is at the end of the day, your money, you can do whatever you please with it, but as a study piece, this sword may not have much to offer, and if you want it as a practise sword, please re-read my above comments.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy hagop

[sanjuro]

Hi Milika

 

Nice sword,but.......

 

Most mainstream Iaido Ryu would consider this too short a blade. Also, most mainstream Iaido Ryu would not encourage a beginner to use a live blade until they have some control and proficiency in handling a blade. This only in the interests of your fellow student's safety. However, although some ryu advocate the use of quite long blades, the term 'long blade' is relative to the height and weight/strength of the individual. A quick way to check if the blade is about right for you is to stand with your arms by your side and have someone measure the distance between the fork in your right hand between the thumb and forefinger to the ground. The length of the blade you use for iai should be 4 -5 centimetres (about 1/34) inches shorter than that measurement. In other words a sword held at your side, point downward by you whilst you are standing straight up should not touch the ground.

This is a very general indication as there are other aspects of the blade which also need to be taken into consideration.

The best course of action would be to have your Sensei vet any sword you wish to buy for Iaido.

If it is an art sword you require then this blade may not have much to offer in terms of blade features.

just my Humble opinion.........

[Ken-Hawaii]

Some good advice here, Milica. There is much more to swinging a sword than is obvious, & you definitely need a sensei to guide you. And that sensei is almost surely not going to allow you to use a shinken (live blade) until you have quite a bit of experience with a non-sharpenable iaito.

 

Welcome to the forum.

[Ruben]

Hi Milika,

 

for a quik advice, I wouldn´t go over 3 shaku with the swordlenght, than the noto will be very difficult especialy with a shinken lol.

In our ryu we use very long swords, so some movements are little difficult, for example you have to "touch" (hard to describe) the saya when doing kata´s in kneeing position, to prevent it from making noice or get damaged. (we allways "touching" the saya before bringing the left arm up to tsuka, for many reasons (kime)).

The other think is when drawing the sword, without saya biki and using the hipps you will never draw a 3 shaku sword. Also the sword is not drawn out of the saya, its more like the saya is pulled back as much as possible.

So its up to you, "easy" to handle is a sword with nagasa 70 cm (way to short for me), ideal length is about 85cm in my case.

My sensei says: "learn to hanlde big swords, than the short ones will be very easy for you."

This is his personal opinion and fits to our ryu and the way we wear the swords (in front, not sideways and tsuba is in one line with the right side of the hip).

 

Best Regards!

 

Ruben

[mnedel]

Thank you all for so many in depth answers. This is truly a newbie friendly forum.

I fell in love with katanas on my only visit to Japan. I didn’t have time to look for one then since we stayed for only 3 days, but I been searching for a good sword since then. I am looking for a sword with a healthy blade with no damage or flaws and in full mounting in the affordable price range. It would be primarily used for display and then practice. I just prefer capable blades that can be used today. As for the size of the blade, I am 170 cm tall, average built woman. The distance from my hand to the floor is 76 cm. So the length is ok? I realize that this is not an art sword and I don’t think I can find one in this price range but, do you think is this sword any good in that regard? Some of you have said that there will be little to study in the sword as there is no activity in it. I suppose that is not a problem now since I am a newbie and probably wont even notice, but latter on, what do you think is the reselling potential of the sword? Would it be easy to sell? Sorry for all these questions.

Best regards

Milica

[sanjuro]

Hi Milika.

 

In this case the dealer has indicated that the sword is ideal for Iai, which usually means it is not a remarkable sword in the art sense. The size seems to be appropriate for a female and given that ladies are 'hinged' a little differently to men (musculature of the forearm and wrist), if the sword is not an inherently heavy blade then it should serve you well in an iai capacity even though it would be considered short for a male practitioner. That said, if the sword is used for iai it will become lightly scratched and the saya will become worn in the process of practicing iaido. This is an unfortunate and unavoidable side product. Scratching and wear will over time devalue the sword and its koshirea.

However, what will most likely happen, and I have observed this many times, is that once having used the sword for a period of time you will probably not wish to part with it. Over a period of time when practicing Iai one develops a 'synergy' with the sword one uses. Your technique is literally built around the individual sword to the point that if another sword is substituted, it feels strange for quite awhile. I have known Iadoka keep one sword for many years and have it repolished rather than buy a new sword. I still use the same sword I started with some twenty odd years ago, and although a new shinken has been made for me, and I am becoming used to it, I still prefer using my old nihonto as the techniques seem to 'flow' a little better when I use it. Twenty years of muscle memory is a hard thing to retrain. :D

[FBJ]

Just wondering what you think about this sword..

Added to the above advice about having put the required training time in (say 7 to 10 years) before practicing sword arts with a live blade, is the potential danger in using a large chukissaki for some of the more dynamic koryu. Your draw and resheathing have to be nailed perfectly before considering such a blade. Even advanced folks would need to think carefully before using this sort of configuration.

[kusunokimasahige]

First of all, welcome.

 

Personally i would much more prefer to buy a shinken for Iai than a Gendaito.

 

Notwithstanding that a Gendaito is of course sturdier than older more ancient blades this sword still looks a little too nice to practice iai with. Shinken are a lot cheaper. It is true what earlier posters say, that a good sensei will either start you on a bokken, after which you can start with a blunt blade, after which you could try a shinken.

 

A lot of accidents happen when users who are not very proficient with the shinken or proficient even in Iai draw their sword or put it back and cut themselves deeply in the palm of the hand holding the saya.

 

I would ask a sensei which size would be best for you before buying any nihonto.

 

Just my two cents.

 

KM

[FBJ]

Personally i would much more prefer to buy a shinken for Iai than a Gendaito.

Terminology. All nihonto are shinken, though I suppose you meant a non-Japanese blade for iaido.

[John A Stuart]

I would reasses that statement Mike. John

[FBJ]

I would reasses that statement Mike. John

 

I've tried. I've seen a number of odd categorizations of swords, often at odds with how the Japanese categorize them in their native tonue, however I'd rather believe they fall into two broad categories -- nihonto and mogito. Nihonto are Japanese sword made in the traditional sense, while any non-traditional Japanese styled blades may be considered varying degrees of imitations ranging from kazarito to iaito, to some kinds of shinken; all able to be slotted losely or confidently into one or both of those categories. The distinctions quite rightfully aren't as distinct as us westernfolk make them.

 

I've read several statements, often from western collectors who appear to categorize nihonto as any smith made Japanese blade pretty much made before a certain time period and/or of a certain artistic value (read, high). I don't agree with those categorizations. My 2010 shinsakuto made for the purpose of iai is as much a nihonto (and shinken) -- a Japanese constructed, tamahagane based traditional product albeit with far less artistic value -- than a koto Masamune. It's also noteworthy that according to many who have spent at least moderate amounts of time in Japan and in sword/swordsmanship circles, that the terms 'shinken' and 'nihonto' are pretty much interchangeable there. Given the context-driven nature of the Japanese language, the overlapping definitions are a given I figure.

 

I wrote the following awhile ago on a Japanese swordsmanship forum after someone made a similar statement. I only recently added the various kazarito sections and haven't scoured the updated list for logical gaps:

 

All nihonto are shinken.

Some shinken are nihonto.

Some nihonto are iaito.

Some shinken are iaito.

Most iaito are mogito.

No mogito are nihonto.

Some mogito are shinken*

No mogito are shinken**

Some mogito are iaito.

Some kazarito are shinken*

Some shinken are kazarito*

No nihonto are kazarito.

No iaito are kazarito.

Most mogito are kazarito.

 

* Outside Japan.

** Inside Japan.

 

By all means, if you disagree or if my understanding lacks in anything I say, fill in the blanks for me.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Mike, I can see where you are coming from. 真剣 shinken, meaning true sword. So, your definition is correct, but, colloquially shinken refers to a sword used in practice, whereas I have never heard anyone use the word 'shinken' for a Nihonto in kantei, in the art sword context. 真剣勝負, here being used to describe combat with swords as opposed to 練功. John

[kusunokimasahige]

So that would mean i would have to classify my nihonto as shinken when i would use it in training but on leaving the dojo it would be a nihonto again ?

 

 

KM

[John A Stuart]

Call it Lucille if you want. John

[FBJ]

..colloquially shinken refers to a sword used in practice.

 

This is the first time I've heard this as an assumed meaning for shinken (literally true sword, taken to mean any Japanese or Japanese style blade with a live edge). The terms I most often hear for swung blades are iaito (iai-yo), "batto-yo" or "mogito" in the case of the ubiquitous aluminum alloy blades in the sword art world. I've found there is a tremendous overlap in these terms, and it can get confusing at times considering folks seem to have differing understanding of what each category of sword entails.

[FBJ]

So that would mean i would have to classify my nihonto as shinken when i would use it in training but on leaving the dojo it would be a nihonto again ?

No, your nihonto is a shinken (true blade) and will always be one, whether or not you use it in training. Having said that, if you want to remind your mates that you have an authentic blade, call it a nihonto in the dojo -- otherwise call it a iaito, since you use it for that purpose. "Shinken" is probaby your best bet in the dojo though, as you want to send the constant reminder that you can sever limbs if folks get too close to you.

[John A Stuart]

Not to belabour the point. When the term comes up in conversation it usually is something like this; "I am having a shinken made for me in Japan for tameshigiri." "I am having Kunietsu Kiyota make me a Nihonto." One is a practice sword and the other not, although it could be. John

[FBJ]

Not to belabour the point. When the term comes up in conversation it usually is something like this; "I am having a shinken made for me in Japan for tameshigiri." "I am having Kunietsu Kiyota make me a Nihonto." One is a practice sword and the other not, although it could be. John

 

Yep, but the apparent point of contention to me is why western collectors appear to be reluctant to call iai or tameshigiri blades made in Japan nihonto. I'd conclude the swords in both your examples above are nihonto given both are made in Japan and it's illegal to produce anything but licensed, traditional swords there. I'd like to know why in the case of Japanese blades "shinken" is seen to be apart from "nihonto" and in going along with that distinction, why they're assumed by a lot of people outside Japan to be somehow less distinguished than nihonto.

 

It's interesting overall, because on one hand you have those in Japanese swordsmanship circles with their own set of definitions about the swords they use, then you have collectors with a seeming whole other set of definitions. I won't disagree that forcing these hard distinctions makes it easier to get your point across about what you're referring to -- iaito often meaning an aluminum imitation versus shinken to mean something with an edge, for example. Maybe it's me, but my brain is throwing up error conditions all over the place when I hear that my shinsakuto is a iaito and shinken all the same when others insist those terms are only loosely related.

 

Heh.

[kusunokimasahige]

Hey Mike, well from what i heard in the dojo, a shinken was related to as a sharp sword for iaido which sells around the 7-800 Euro mark, or on the high end for about 1200, sometimes Hanwei, sometimes Paul chen etcetera, and a Nihonto is looked at with much higher esteem, also classified as a sharp sword, when gendaito ok for practice, but a totally different league swordwise.

 

When a sword is older than say 100 years almost every sensei will discourage use in the dojo due to wear and unseen internal cracks, which at one time did lead to an entire blade shattering when performing a kata, and i also heard one time during the drawing the mekugi ana broke which sent a nihonto flying into the wall somewhere.

 

So for me a shinken will always be the cheaper machine made or manually forged high carbon steel sharp stuff dreams are made of and ok for training, while a Nihonto to me is a sword which actually is inhabited by a soul...

 

But thats just me.

 

KM

[FBJ]

So for me a shinken will always be the cheaper machine made or manually forged high carbon steel sharp stuff dreams are made of and ok for training, while a Nihonto to me is a sword which actually is inhabited by a soul...

Understandable. Suppose I'll default to the how the Japanese use the term since there are no cheaper, machine made live blades in Japan (that exist legally anyway) so those don't enter into context for them, otherwise I'd go insane when our high-ranking iaidoka visit from Japan in the next few months and inevitably call my shinsakuto a shinken, and I'm certainly not open to arguing with them. LOL!