STAR stamped nakago mei translation help

[patrick7813]

Hi all - I have a shin gunto blade with a STAR stamped nakago and I’m having difficulty translating the mei (see attached picture). I highlighted the mei with chalk to enhance the picture. Any help with the translation will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[John A Stuart]

Yoshishige, a Mino smith. John

[patrick7813]

Thanks so much. I appreciate it greatly. I have good luck translating some mei without any assistance while others just elude me. This was one of those. Hopefully, I'll become more skilled at translation.

[george trotter]

As John says...this smith is Yoshishige. The only place I find this name is on the WWII Seki Tosho List by Jinsoo Kim (link above).

He is Komiyama Ryozo (Yoshishige) and started as a gunto smith on 1st Nov 1942.

The nakago here looks well finished, but the style of mei cutting is very "seki". The regulations for RJT say a smith must be scrupulous in signing his mei... an RJT smith also had to date his work. I think this mei style seems less than "scrupulous". Can you say whether this nakago is dated? (what date?). From the style of writing, and not knowing if it is dated, I am cautious to say whether he is a RJT smith . In addition to the caution I feel looking at the pic/name/style etc I also had a look through my RJT lists and could not find his name.

So we can give this blade a better assessment, can you show some more pics of the blade, hada/nie, ha/mune machi, kissaki, date etc ?

 

Regards,

George.

[patrick7813]

Hello George

 

I’m beginning to share your caution. There is no date on the nakago and I too could not find Yoshishige on the RJT lists that I scanned. Unfortunately, the habaki is “stuck” and I’m reluctant to force it to capture views of the ha/mune-machi . The kissaki/yakote and mune are attached (I hope they're high res enough to show hada, nie, etc.).

 

If this smith/blade is not an RJT, could you fathom an explanation of the STAR stamp presence? The person from whom I acquired this is a knowledgeable collector and I’ve known him for years.

 

Regards and thanks for your interest and help.

[george trotter]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the pics. I don't see really nie or hada in these, but it is difficult from a pic. I do know that the RJT smith could choose any style of hamon, but it had to be "chu" in width...this seems a little narrow? Maybe to assist assessment you could show some more of the blade/hamon etc...maybe also an overall shot for shape, and the date side of nakago (what date?) and a shot showing all the nakago and habaki (I agree, don't force...get advice on removing this habaki gently). What is the exact length of blade ha-watari in cm?

 

If this is not an RJT smith (as I suspect), I can only say that the star stamp must be bogus...not so long ago I think someone on NMB mentioned seeing some bogus star stamps in the 1980s . Can't be definite yet, but based on the vast increase in knowledge about RJT smiths in recent years, this maker and a star SEEM to be questionable.

 

Hope this helps,

George.

[cabowen]

like George said, we need more pictures.

 

There are several reasons why there may be a star and no date and no listing of this smith as a RJT.

 

The most probable is that this smith became a RJT late in the war. The list everyone refers to was made in 1943. Surely there were smiths added to this system later.

 

Being late in the war, like everything else, many things became expedient and perhaps the lack of date was simply overlooked. I know of one smith who told me the army inspector would come to his forge one a month or so and look at his blades, then stamp the ones that passed; perhaps rather than take the time to sign and date the blades before inspection, he waited until afterwards. Thus it may be the case that the star stamp was placed on the blade before the mei was added and the smith simply skipped adding the date.

 

In any case, we will probably never know for certain. The best we can do is look at the sword to see if the workmanship is on par for what one would expect from a RJT. For that, we will certainly need better photos.

[patrick7813]

Hi George and Chris

 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your interests and help as this mystery deepens.

 

I understand the need for better pictures but when you say “better” are you referring to close ups of the hada, nie, etc.? If so, I’ll need to get a true macro lens for close ups of the hada, nie, etc. I’m attaching pictures of the blade that I had taken previously for a catalog. Hopefully, these can provide some perspective to start answering questions. The nagasa is about 63 cm. I can attest the blade is quite sharp. I’m hoping this is a later forged blade when attention to finished details was relaxed. I will be disappointed to find out it’s a bogus STAR stamped blade (although it does display nicely)

 

Cheers,

[Jamie]

Hi Patrick,

 

Jean wrote something up not long ago and gives a nice example of how to capture the hada. You might read that- It may help even if you don't have a macro lens.

[Jean]

Patrick,

 

I have no macro lens.

 

To take the photo , I put my Nikon D40 on a tripod and the blade on my Katanakake, on a white sheet. I used my only objective which is a Nikon ZOOM 18-200 auto focus. I shut the light and take my LED Torchlight which gives this blue tone. I hold my torch at a 45° angle with the left hand and press the button with the right one. I vary the angle of the torch light to have the best light on the blade before taking the shot. Very good results where the blade was against the white Cloth, but not very good for the kissaki the wall being 20cm behind. the pictures are a bit fuzzy

[cabowen]

it looks forged and water quenched to me, as best I can tell from the photos...I very much doubt the star stamp is bogus....looking forward to some clearer, closer photos....

[patrick7813]

Patrick,

 

I have no macro lens.

 

To take the photo , I put my Nikon D40 on a tripod and the blade on my Katanakake, on a white sheet. I used my only objective which is a Nikon ZOOM 18-200 auto focus. I shut the light and take my LED Torchlight which gives this blue tone. I hold my torch at a 45° angle with the left hand and press the button with the right one. I vary the angle of the torch light to have the best light on the blade before taking the shot. Very good results where the blade was against the white Cloth, but not very good for the kissaki the wall being 20cm behind. the pictures are a bit fuzzy

 

Thanks for the advice Jean. I have a Cannon EOS Rebel XT with Cannon 28-105 zoom. I do not have an LED torchlight or tripod. All of my photography to date has been for outdoor action sporting events. I'll get a tripod and torchlight and try your technique.

Cheers

[patrick7813]

it looks forged and water quenched to me, as best I can tell from the photos...I very much doubt the star stamp is bogus....looking forward to some clearer, closer photos....

 

Chris

This is reassuring. I'm going to attempt a technique suggested by Jean to get closer and clearer pictures. That may take a few days for me to get all the suggested components. In the interim, here's 2 full view pictures (signature/date side views) that may be if use. Again, I appreciate your (and everyone's) help in trying to decode the origin of the blade/smith.

Cheers

[george trotter]

Hmmm, some interesting possibilities have been raised here which suggest a way an undated blade with IMHO a less than "scrupulously" cut mei could have come into existence. Perhaps some of us (well,...me) afficionados of RJT are just too rigid in the following of the regulations? As Chris says, some rational explanations for "variants" do exist. For example, looking at my own RJT's and oshigatas of previously owned RJT's, I see (had not noticed before) a variation. The regulations say

 

5. "Nakago shape and file work will be of quality and mei cutting will be scrupulously done. The mei will be on the outside in the normal way and on the reverse side will be the date of manufacture as year, month, day (sexagenary cycle is also permissable)."

 

A Muto Hidehiro RJT blade I owned had a tachimei and the Koki cycle date for Feb 1943 and a RJT blade by Nagao Kunishiro is katanamei and uses the normal Showa nengo for Feb 1944. Both have the "scrupulously" cut mei and finished nakago but as can be seen, they differ? from the regs...which one is "correct"...both were stamped with the star even though one is slightly "non-regulation" (which one?). So, it does appear that certain things were passed as OK...I suppose the inspector paid most attention to the quality of the blade...so for us too, if the blade is of quality, the star and nakago details are "back-up" to that. ( I know I always buy the blade, not the mei and stamp, although I always appreciate the latter as well). So, from this I suppose a degree of late war irregularities could have arisen as Chris says...I must check all the star stamped blades I can find and see if any other one is "less than scrupulous" in mei cutting, or has no date or has dating cycle variations...lots of fun!

I still can't pass an opinion on this blade yet Patrick...I think you need to do more study and get other opinions?.

Hope I haven't raved on too much.

George.

 

PS...I just did a look through Slough's oshigata and a few others including this Yoshishige, and this shows an interesting outcome for "irregularities" in the RJT system. I looked at 23 star stamp oshigatas dated between 1942 - 1945

 

19 were signed tachimei...4 were signed katanamei

16 were dated Showa system...5 were undated...2 were dated Koki system

 

3 were what I would call unscrupulously finished and signed

Kaneaki of Seki mar 1943

Kanemitsu of Aichi Mar 1944

Yoshishige of Seki undated.

 

I would say that the 2 Seki ones especially seem to be signed in the "Seki style" so it may be their normal way of writing. From this it appears Chris is correct...variations did occur and were allowed, not necessarily in late war period either. Both katanamei and tachimei were accepted and also undated nakago, but the katanamei and the undated are not that common. Hope this helps.

Geo.

[patrick7813]

Hi George

 

Your description and level of detail/research certainly is not “raving on” but very informative, enjoyable and educational for a novice. I also found and read your original post “Star stamped swords (03/25/10)” and found that very instructive. Since I cannot locate any Yoshishige listed as an RJT, perhaps he falls into your category 2 of that posting “Private swordsmiths, and also Sword companies were commissioned to forge swords (nakago marked with mei and simple Army Star inspection mark)”.

 

I’m still struggling with getting good detail pictures of the blade for showing the hada, etc. I did visually inspect the blade under magnification and don’t believe I see any grain (muji). I compared it side by side with a Kunimori (nee Yasuhiro) in my collection and there’s a distinctly noticeable difference in the respective hada (or visual lack thereof in the Yoshishige).

 

So, I'm continuing the work of getting good quality pictures and the quest for clarity………

 

Thanks and Cheers,

[patrick7813]

All

 

This is a picture of a portion of the blade near the habaki taken with subdued lighting and then a photo editor used to enhance (sharpen) the image. I’m seeing the hada (possibly Kokuna or as originally presumed still being Muji) and the hamon (possibly Hiro-suguha). I hope it hasn’t been over enhanced to show characteristics that aren’t actually present. I’ll wait for those with more detailed knowledge to chime in on this. In the interim, I’ll continue the photography experiment.

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

Maybe a bit over enhanced....

 

Looks like it might be a masame hada but again, hard to say with the photo...

[patrick7813]

Maybe a bit over enhanced....

 

Looks like it might be a masame hada but again, hard to say with the photo...

 

I was afraid of that (hence, my mentioning over enhancement). I'll continue working the picture taking and will only repost when I feel it's a useful/true rendering of the blade. Thanks for your continued help and patience.

 

Cheers,

[Stephen]

Pat

 

it the blade is out of polish or just war time polish its going to be very hard to get a pix.

[patrick7813]

Hi Steven

 

Yes, the blade is still in wartime polish. My oldest daughter has the same camera rig that Jean uses (Nikon D40 and external LED torch light), so I'm going to give that a try. That failing, I'll be at a loss to get any better, detailed pictures. Now that you've mentioned the state of polish, I realize how that could inhibit taking an accurate and detailed image.

 

Thanks and regards,