Cast or forged

[nihonto_1]

Hi all, so randomly bought some auction tsuba, not for a lot and marked as copies....soooo i kind of knew what I was in for. Anyhow a couple looked genuine to me so went for it as was also looking at some other items.

 

Have posted a couple of images below, against light and dark back grounds, have not gone into singular images.

from auction photos I thought a couple more would be genuine.....currently I believe 2 to be forged and I have question marks over another 2....

But don't want to reveal yet.

[nihonto_1]

[Kantaro]

Hi Will, the first 3 and last 3 look the best to me based on what I can see on one picture. But I am not an expert.

Edited Thursday at 05:23 PM by Kantaro

[Scogg]

Just for future reference, your tsuba photos are oriented upside down.

I agree that some look more promising than others, although I'm not qualified to determine if theyre cast or not. I think some better photo might be needed for the tsuba folks to make a determination. 

That brass one, with the 4 flowers, appears to be a tsuba for a World War Two shin-guntō (shown from my screenshot below):

Best,
-Sam

[nihonto_1]

Thanks sam, yes I got slightly confused with orientation, noted.

 

I agree with the 4 flowers, I thought it may be a war piece, but also cast.

 

@Kantaro yes that was my original thoughts, plus the 1st one from the second row. 

[Hector]

This one's got potential. 🤔

[nihonto_1]

@Hector I thought this was most likely out of the bunch, simple, nice patina, iron sukashi tsuba, maybe early Edo?

Some images below (not against black as I am finding on my camera it just blows out the exposure.)

 

[nihonto_1]

After going through and looking for seam lines. grainy textures and blown out details I reduced it to the below (I could be wrong, as a complete beginner, just looking for casting marks and no tool marks etc)

 

The ones with blue marks I am questioning, as certain elements seems off to me for forging, or should I say look more like cast artifacts in the metal work 

 

Really hoping the bottom right is genuine, but have some doubts.

 

Will add some.photos tomorrow 

 

 

[thutson]

Hi Will,

 

I think the 4 you marked definitely have potential to be genuine and I also like the look of the bottom right tsuba. If you can share some better photos of them tomorrow that would be helpful.

 

Best,

Tom

[nihonto_1]

Thanks Tom. Will do.

Bottom right is nice (and what drew me to the set originally), but also why I am being more cautious about it's authenticity.

 

Will

[Scogg]

WW2 gunto brass tsuba were all cast as far as I know. Many workshops made them, and they can vary in style and quality quite a bit.  
 

Theres is some debate about whether or not poorer casted examples are repros or late war. I actually have one just like yours, and I’m not certain if it’s a repro or not. See some similar examples here:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/47106-fittings-thread/page/6/

 

Food for thought,

-Sam

[Spartancrest]

Middle left is a Chinese repro - https://www.rubylane.com/item/2203710-BR-1622-061625-01/Sword-Guard-Tsuba-Brass-Guan-Gong   

 

As is this one https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/A-Japanese-rectangular-bronze-tsuba-embossed-with-a-figure/291-japanese_rectangular_bronze-18.8.20-walli            Bottom second from the right (kinko flowers with signature) could be genuine.

[nihonto_1]

Hey Dale.

 

 

Yes that is what I had come too, the 1st Chinese repro, very Chinese figures, blown out details, painted on silver (I think/plated), Sandy texture,  no seam lines though. On the link you sent,.seems a high price, I'm minted now.

 

The second link is very interesting, as that's the same tsuba through the same auction, obvs sold separately 6 years ago, thanks for the link.

 

Second Bottom right, I was hoping could be authentic, as some of the flowers have some turn back details that would be very hard to cast (no release angle etc), BUT, has some slightly dubious mei, and then a very obvious seam along the inner rim, will add photos later. Maybe it was forged but the seam kind of made me think otherwise.

 

 

W

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 10:18 AM by nihonto_1

[nihonto_1]

So the below seems forged so not a great amount of detail

 

Or the Chinese copies

[nihonto_1]

These two are interesting, and I question.

On the sukashi tsuba on the right there are several elements I am not sure about.

Air bubbles in the metal? Also kogai-ana seems 1/3rd smaller than the kozuka-ana (hope I got that the right way around)

A possible seem, but nowhere else can I see it, so could be a product of forging, it's not central and not very straight.....

 

The tsuba on the left, has a few marks but I think the patina throws me a bit

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

[nihonto_1]

I really thought the brass one was forged, but as you can see there is a very dominant seam line on the inside of the rim

 

The tsuba on the right, has a very cast surface......and also a seam line running around the rim.

[nihonto_1]

These feel a lot more forged than the rest.....the tsuba on the right is very chunky compared to all the others  (9mm)

 

 

That was a lot of photo taking. 😩 

[nihonto_1]

Oh, workshop marks, meaning mass produced, and cast.

[Spartancrest]

16 hours ago, nihonto_1 said:

I really thought the brass one was forged, but as you can see there is a very dominant seam line on the inside of the rim

Most kinko [soft metal] guards are cast - then reworked for finer details. 

This thread has a cut down version of your iron guard with the "tansu" handles or fern shoots if you prefer. 

 this guard is very modern  - they are still being made  https://katanzo.us/shop/tsuba-kishi/

Edited Saturday at 08:02 AM by Spartancrest

[nihonto_1]

Thanks Dale.

 

Super interesting about the cutdown rim/mini.

 

Also just saw the diagram for rim/mimi shapes, super helpful.

 

My one is very similar to one of the ones you used to demonstrate.

 

 

So the kinko with flower design, would have been cast, then the petals chiseled in? Does this make it a tourist repro? Or something older?

 

 

What would your thoughts on the square sukashi

 

I see air bubbles, but also nice sharp edges and a few tool marks. The limited chiseled detail is a bit lacking in its grace.

W

 

[thutson]

Hi Will,

 

Thanks for the extra pictures. I'm a fan of Musashino plains-themed tsuba portraying the desolate, poetic Musashi Plain covered in autumn grass (susuki) and featuring a lone stirrup (abumi) to symbolize fallen warriors. However, the small air bubbles and partial casting seam give me an uneasy feeling about your sukashi tsuba. I did an image search and found a website displaying an identical tsuba as cast so I'm inclined to think your tsuba is unfortuantly also cast.

 

https://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tsubacastiron.html

 

That said, it could fool me, it's not your typical looking cast tsuba and does seem to have sharpe features and tool marks. It's difficult to be sure without seeing it in hand.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[nihonto_1]

@thutson thank you for the link Tom, it is indeed identical, even the odd sized holes.

 

Damn air bubbles. I have a nice collection of paper weights now.....

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

     It may even be the same piece, the faults are too identical - which means only one example so is it cast? There are many tsuba with smaller hitsu on one side - that would not eliminate it.

[nihonto_1]

17 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

     It may even be the same piece, the faults are too identical - which means only one example so is it cast? There are many tsuba with smaller hitsu on one side - that would not eliminate it.

Interesting, when on my laptop later might do a wee photoshop overlay.

But from on my phone I think the lower detail on the left on your image is a lot softer than my one, plus in my grab below there does seems to be a artifact near the stirrup.

 

 

Could the the photos though. Also just looking again, mine does seem to have slightly sharper edges than on the link....again could just be the photo

 

W

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:40 AM by nihonto_1

[nihonto_1]

Possibly my one was cast earlier, this the mould would have been in better shape...so it's possibly a bit older...yay