"Just a tsuka' for sale. What do people do with them?

[GreyVR]

I've noticed a lot of Tsukas for sale in various places. I do not wish to sound like I'm objecting to it! but I have questions. 

Do people have a way to fit these to swords? It would seem like you would need an Xray machine. You could break it down for the metal fittings, (which I imagine happens, but is that all?) If so, why sell it as a tsuka and not pull out the fittings? 

Can you break them open and use the wood and same? Is this desirable? 

Do people (More then a tiny number I mean) collect Tsukas? 

Now, part of me thinks they should stay intact if thy are very old, because there's certainly an issue with Tsukas getting bigger. I have a sword which is quite old, and has a very narrow Tsuka, and I have a Hanwei practical and it has a very wide Tsuka.... so the destruction of history is something of an issue... but it's also a replaceable part and it isn't attached to a sword if it's for sale by itself.... 

What's the story on these sales and the buyers? 

[Brian]

Same way people collect fuchi/kashira and menuki, keeping an entire tsuka allows you to collect all those parts already assembled. Many of us collectors have tsuka that we will never fit to a sword and collect them for the en-suite fittings.

[Tim Evans]

Do people have a way to fit these to swords? It would seem like you would need an Xray machine. You could break it down for the metal fittings, (which I imagine happens, but is that all?) If so, why sell it as a tsuka and not pull out the fittings? 

 

• Yes, the interior of tsuka can be enlarged with basic woodworking tools, and also shimmed using thin strips of wood and glue. I have examples of both being done back in the day on old koshirae I have. 

Can you break them open and use the wood and same? Is this desirable? 

 

• High grade same' is very expensive and is salvaged and reused

Do people (More then a tiny number I mean) collect Tsukas? 

 

• Very old/rare and very high grade tsuka are collected and preserved. But yes, there are very few specialist tsuka collectors. I think mostly these are people with an interest in koshirae and will buy parts of the types of koshirae that interest them. Finding a complete tsuka in good condition is way cheaper and more authentic that have a new one made with old parts. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:06 PM by Tim Evans

[Scogg]

Last year at the Las Vegas Japanese Sword Show, Brian Tschernega did a presentation on tsukamaki and discussed tsuka. He brought several old tsuka from the Muromachi period onward, and talked about them. He emphasized that old tsuka were "teachers", and that they inform and inspire modern crafstmen to better emulate how tsuka were made in the past. Preserved old tsuka can help keep those tradition alive. 

Obviously not all tsuka are old, but just another scenario tsuka may be traded around. It's important to keep them in the hands of people who care about their preservation and appreciate that history and craftsmanship. 

 

[GreyVR]

THAT is an excellent reason. He's a Tsuka maker though, so it makes infinite sense why he would collect them. In truth, I wish very much that more old tsuka were kept intact for the reasons he mentions. Modern Tsuka are oversized. PEople will explain this as people being bigger, but I think it's as much a laziness and an unfamiliarity with the originals. I strongly believe the original users would be most upset with the modern ratio as being harder to manipulate. 

When I was at the Stibbard Museum in Florence (This is a place every arms collector needs to make a pilgrimage to. Go through twice minimum.) If arms collectors and preservationists had a patron saint, it would be Fredrick/Fredrico Stibbard.) I spend a lot of time taking photos of the koshirae with a dollar next to them for scale. I might have to post some of the photos. Place is the only museum I've ever even heard of with Japanese horse armor. 

Here's just one image of the armor, since I don't want to derail my own thread. 

[jawob]

Bummer, I was in Florence in April and had no idea about this museum

[Scogg]

I’m no expert in fittings, and I haven’t seen it all of course. But the oldest tsuka I’ve seen in-person, from the muromachi period, were large and robust. I was surprised at the simplicity and overall utilitarian look.

[eternal_newbie]

1 hour ago, GreyVR said:

Modern Tsuka are oversized. PEople will explain this as people being bigger, but I think it's as much a laziness and an unfamiliarity with the originals. I strongly believe the original users would be most upset with the modern ratio as being harder to manipulate. 

 

Another part of this is that the way swords are used today is different; particularly the dominance of Toyama-ryu style tameshigiri and ZNKR-style iaido (which has strong ties to kendo, and thus also favours a longer tsuka). Ease of manipulation and single-handed use take a back seat to cutting power and "proper" form according to the mainstream martial arts.

[GreyVR]

17 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

Toyama-ryu style tameshigiri and ZNKR-style iaido (which has strong ties to kendo, and thus also favours a longer tsuka)

What you say is absolutely true, but I would like to say I do not refer to tsuka length, but width/diameter/circumference. 

Here are a few swords in my collection. The top is a Hanwei Practical Plus, which I bought because it was cheap and I wanted to own a katana of some kind. (I'm hoping to put it on ebay soon.) It's nice enough for an entry level Japanese style sword. 

Look at how BIG the Tsuka is. Under it on the rack is an antique nihonto that I likely paid too much for, and need to have rewrapped as the wrap is rather dirty. (Can you reuse ito? I hear some claim they unwrap yearly and clean it, and other say it must be replaced because you can't retie the knots.) 

Lest you think this is JUST a Chinese copy problem, I held in the image a sword whose Koshirae I had made for a mumei hozen I bought some time ago. 



In the second image, I am holding in an antique wakizashi (though the silk is new, the tsuka is the original.) 

The modern Tsukas are very large around compared to the antiques, and I strongly believe this is a topic that should be talked about much more. 


@Tim Evans

• Quote

  Yes, the interior of tsuka can be enlarged with basic woodworking tools, and also shimmed using thin strips of wood and glue. I have examples of both being done back in the day on old koshirae I have. 

   

I would be very interested to know how this is accomplished. I am not a talented woodworker, but I have a cheness tsuka (without a mekugi pin) I'd love to be able to use to feel the handling of a ?tired? older blade in shirasaya I have. How I would get the pin hole drilled I have no notion, even if the tang fit into the tsuka, which it does not. 

[eternal_newbie]

50 minutes ago, GreyVR said:

The modern Tsukas are very large around compared to the antiques, and I strongly believe this is a topic that should be talked about much more. 

 

Among modern Japanese koshirae (iaito, shinken) there seem to be two main styles - the standard tsuka type which is the slightly curved but otherwise near-uniform width form that you dislike, and the other is Higo-style, which is the slimmer, more dramatically waisted form seen on your wakizashi. I also favour the latter and ask for it when ordering iaito (and for my commissioned iai shinsakuto), even though it tends to be more expensive than the thicker "default".

 

Among Chinese copies the problem is even worse; believe it or not, your Hanwei is one of the better tsuka from that early age of production blades. Most of them suffered from what we called "axe-handle syndrome" where the tsuka was (in addition to being far longer and wider than traditional katana) completely straight and of an entirely uniform width from fuchi to kashira, resembling the handle of a polearm or chopping weapon rather than a blade made for slashing and slicing.

[Tim Evans]

14 hours ago, GreyVR said:

I would be very interested to know how this is accomplished. I am not a talented woodworker, but I have a cheness tsuka (without a mekugi pin) I'd love to be able to use to feel the handling of a ?tired? older blade in shirasaya I have. How I would get the pin hole drilled I have no notion, even if the tang fit into the tsuka, which it does not. 

I have seen retrofit old tsuka where the mekugiana was moved. you can tell if you see a same' patch where the original hole was. If the Cheness tsuka is too tight, then various files could be used to remove material. This is a 3D problem that takes some thought about which way you want the tsuka to move. Do you take wood off the ha side or the mune side? It is also important to make sure that fuchi tenjogane is parallel to the tsuba seppadai, so may need to remove or add wood in stategic spots to "rotate" the tsuka into proper alignment. Also need to check the interior length against the nakago length with the habaki, tsuba and seppa in place. If used for martial arts, then the tsuka needs to seat tightly. If too much wood is removed then this can be replaced with thin shims, basswood sheet from the hobby shop works.

I have an old wakizashi koshirae where the tsuka is a period refit. I can tell because the inside was crudely recut. Also, the style of the tsuka does not ideally match the Owari/Yagyu saya. The original mekugiana was used, but this resulted in a big gap where the tsuba goes. Their solution was to make an extra long habaki to fit the tsuba and seppa correctly. Apparently that was preferable to making a new tsuka for it.