Gendai-to vs dentoteki na-to

[John C]

I'm sure there is some contextual nuance I'm missing as a non-Japanese speaker, however I was wondering why we use the term gendai-to to describe a traditionally made blade?

From AI:

Gendai Definition: Composed of gen (Fl, current/now) and dai (1t, age/period).

Dentöteki na : Literally "traditional," used for food, crafts, or methods.

 

If gendai means current or modern age, It seems to me that dentoteki na would be a more accurate way of describing a sword made in the traditional manner.

 

Just curious how the term gendai came to be used ubiquitiously in reference to traditionally made swords.

 

John C.

[Scogg]

I’ve always found it a little confusing as to why the terms are used the way they are.
 

I think what we’re dealing with is literal translations versus what collectors have normalized. I imagine it would be hard to change. 
 

This link explains how the terms are generally used. While it helps explain the semantics of the topic, I think it has also helped solidify those semantics into the collector colloquialism.

https://japaneseswordindex.com/showato.htm

 

I’m sure someone who is fluent in Japanese has a better understanding than me.
All the best,

-Sam

 

 

[eternal_newbie]

6 minutes ago, Scogg said:

This link explains how the terms are generally used. While it helps explain the semantics of the topic, I think it also has helped solidify those semantics into the collector colloquialism.

https://japaneseswordindex.com/showato.htm

 

The usage is greatly inconsistent; many serious collectors use gendaito to describe any sword made in the post-Haitorei sword revival period, while using showato to denote non-traditionally made swords from World War 2!

 

Furthermore, there is another term which muddies the water further: shinsakuto, meaning "newly-made sword" - where "new" generally means any time after the Showa period (so 1989-present).

[Rawa]

I would go for meaning gendai/kindai meaning entire „new era” while shinsakuto - newest made swords

just like this division:

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/period.htm

Next generations will decide if actual division will stick both in years and nomenclature.

 

And yeah we need to go with meaning that „sword” means blade made traditional from the beginning.

 

So non traditionally made dsn’t have right to be called „sword” from the start.

Machine or non-fully traditionally made blades  appeared in big amount after all during late 19th century.

To support this just think about what can get torokusho :] 

We have some showato but it’s rare exception in a rule.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Rawa

[Rawa]

Oh and yeah all traditional swords are called nihonto. So we have nihonto made in koto/shinto/shinshinto/gendai/shinsaku -ERA. Scholars made division.

So new/newer/newest in era context  on relation to nihonto and nihonto only. 
Other concepts for example posted at links: gunto or civil blades;

gendaito or showato it’s just different division based on common practice. Especially showato meaning mass produced non-traditional etc. 

Edited April 27 by Rawa

[John C]

I'm thinking the only folks who use the term gendai in the context of military swords are the WW2 collector community. So why do we not use the more accurate term dentoteki to mean traditionally made military sword?

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I've never heard the history of how the collecting world started using "gendaito" to mean Showa-era nihonto, but it's probably a short-hand way of saying that.

[Rawa]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I've never heard the history of how the collecting world started using "gendaito" to mean Showa-era nihonto, but it's probably a short-hand way of saying that.

If You divide/name swords made during historical Japanese Showa era [1926-1989] those would be swords made during 2 different sword era gendai and shinsaku.

Think about this my way:

gendai-to [現代刀] 

1877-1945
刀 of gendai 

and shinsaku-to [新作刀]

1946- until now

刀 of shinsaku era

 

What is a meaning of 刀?

 

We can’t mixing historical and sword era together.
These are separate divisions.

You heard term showa-to?
Collectors meaning - mass produced

historical - all blades made during reign of emperor showa.

Same with gendai-to.
Two meanings literal and one used by collectors.

Maybe proposed meaning of collector’s term „showato” is to wide and cover entire showa era but producing this type of item stopped entirely way before era ended.

 

Using word showato to describe term: „mass produced non-traditional” in collectors meaning is confusing for many.
If collectors agree to use term like mass-to/sharpi-to or something different it would be better 

Edited April 28 by Rawa

[vajo]

刀 = sword

 

[Rawa]

9 minutes ago, vajo said:

刀 = sword

 

I know bro :] and it’s again question what word „sword” means in Japanese in context of „sword era” (not historical eras)

Is this only traditionally made (nihonto) or under sword we have every blade possible.

But It’s question for this narrow context meaning, not a common meaning in everyday language. 
Before meiji there was no showato, showato production ended with end of ww2. 
For example - term „koto”- old sword, those were always made traditionally.

Edited April 28 by Rawa

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Rawa said:

old sword, those were always made traditionally.

Ha, and even that is messy!  We know that some makers, way back, used Western steel.  Yet, today, no one would be able to tell which blades had it.  So, they would be labeled as nihonto by collectors.

 

It's messy.  I will often just say "traditionally made" or "non-traditionally made".

[eternal_newbie]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

We know that some makers, way back, used Western steel.  Yet, today, no one would be able to tell which blades had it.

 

Many smiths were quite proud of this, and would inscribe it alongside the mei ("made with nanban-tetsu") because imported steel was seen as higher quality than locally refined tamahagane!

[Bruce Pennington]

1 minute ago, eternal_newbie said:

imported steel

Ah yes.  I've heard of the nanban blades.  And I should have said "imported" because I don't know that it was Western steel they used.

[Kiipu]

And that is why I go by water quenched for traditional and oil quenched for nontraditional. I thus avoid what type of steel was used.

[eternal_newbie]

47 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

And I should have said "imported" because I don't know that it was Western steel they used.

 

Apparently nanban was a bit of a blanket term for foreign steel, including steel traded from the Dutch, brought in by travelers from China and Korea, and recovered from shipwrecks (of both Western and Eastern origin).

[Rawa]

48 minutes ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

Apparently nanban was a bit of a blanket term for foreign steel, including steel traded from the Dutch, brought in by travelers from China and Korea, and recovered from shipwrecks (of both Western and Eastern origin).

Nanban = barbarian? Foreign steel

[eternal_newbie]

7 minutes ago, Rawa said:

Nanban = barbarian? Foreign steel

 

Yup. Specifically, "southern barbarians" - people who sailed in from the south.

 

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/glossary/nanban-tetsu-nanmanshi