Jump to content

New Polisher Experience


SwordGuyJoe

Recommended Posts

Seeing fine examples of both styles of polish certainly opens one's eyes to the advantages of each. Whilst part of me still prefers the sashikomi for its elegance and slightly softer look, I can see the beauty in the hadori when it is done well.

After this discussion which I have followed religiously, I am certainly more receptive to the hadori polish in some cases. I guess it is as has been said directly above, No set rules and the finish required suggests itself according to the blade. At the end of the day, one would hope that the togishi one selects, looks at a blade with the same philosophy in view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Well at risk of encouraging more debate about this decision, attached are the photos of my Norimitsu. This will be polished in sashikomi to highlight the radical hada. Please keep in mind that this post was meant to share my experience with this polisher. Your point about amateur vs. professional polishers have been well made and well received. That said, have at it... Before pictures are all the way back at page one.

 

 

 

post-1404-1419678255824_thumb.jpg

post-1404-14196782561682_thumb.jpg

post-1404-14196782563926_thumb.jpg

post-1404-14196782566733_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

...and the rest. I understand the concerns addressed in earlier posts, but out of respect to the polisher, if you would like to give me some guff, please feel free to pm or e-mail. I think this came out pretty good and as stated, far better in hand than in these photos. Thanks for looking when the gendai blade is done, I'll post those as well.

 

 

post-1404-14196787223906_thumb.jpg

post-1404-14196787225557_thumb.jpg

post-1404-14196787228015_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Judging a polish from pictures alone is superficial...You can tell us if it is good by doing the following: look at the reflection of an incandescent light bulb in the ji and move the blade so that the reflection travels up and down the blade. Note how the shape changes as it moves up and down the blade. If the bulb stays the same round shape up and down the blade, you have a good foundation polish, if it contorts in and out every 6 inches or so, you have a poor polish, irregardless...

 

Looks like this blade had some kissaki damage in its past....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I received the blade, that was the first thing that stuck out to me as well. I of course checked my 'before' photos to see if it was improperly ground down. It was not. It was difficult to see any detail before the polish and I couldn't see the boshi. So at the very least, the damage was pre-polish. Also, Chris, thanks for the tip on judging a polish by pictures. That will be very valuable!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I received the blade, that was the first thing that stuck out to me as well. I of course checked my 'before' photos to see if it was improperly ground down. It was not. It was difficult to see any detail before the polish and I couldn't see the boshi. So at the very least, the damage was pre-polish. Also, Chris, thanks for the tip on judging a polish by pictures. That will be very valuable!

 

It would have been a good idea to move the ko-shinogi back a bit to make the width of the kissaki uniform from the yokote around and up, that is, the ko-shinogi should be parallel with the fukura. As is, the kissaki it poorly shaped, which throws of the balance of the whole blade and draws the eye to the damage, instead of away....This is something a professional would have done.

 

 

The tip was on not judging a polish by pictures, but that is semantics I suppose!

 

Most people judge a polish superficially. I have had so many people jump on me for criticizing certain well known amateurs- "Hey, he does a great job-look at his web site!" Or, "I have several blades he polished and they look great!" When I ask them to try the light bulb test, they quickly become silent......There is much more to polishing than meets the casual (and ignorant) eye....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the casual (and ignorant) eye

 

agree but would like have said uneducated eye or less experienced.

seems of late harsh words a thrown out for students who have not reached full appreciation of a blade and polish, I have Chris and Cary + many other who have taken time to teach a old dog how to lay down with swords. I thank them their knowledge and hard work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the casual (and ignorant) eye

 

agree but would like have said uneducated eye or less experienced.

seems of late harsh words a thrown out for students who have not reached full appreciation of a blade and polish, I have Chris and Cary + many other who have taken time to teach a old dog how to lay down with swords. I thank them their knowledge and hard work.

 

Ignorant is not always a pejorative- it can mean inexperienced, untrained, etc. I did not mean to sound harsh and/or judgmental in any way.....But your point is taken and I apologies if I have come across as harsh....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The tip was on not judging a polish by pictures, but that is semantics I suppose!

 

 

Chris,

I understood your point and apparently wrong summarized while trying to tell you thank you for sharing some insight - It sure is tough to tell you thank you. I'll pass on replying to the ignorant comment and just say thank you again. I have a lot that I could learn from you and the rest of the gentlemen on this board, Stephen and Jean are certainly on that list, and I appreciate the words of wisdom whether delivered harshly or otherwise. :thanks:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The tip was on not judging a polish by pictures, but that is semantics I suppose!

 

 

Chris,

I understood your point and apparently wrong summarized while trying to tell you thank you for sharing some insight - It sure is tough to tell you thank you.

 

I just wanted to be sure that we understood each other. You are most welcome and if this tip helps you, I will certainly be pleased to have been of help....

 

I'll pass on replying to the ignorant comment and just say thank you again. I have a lot that I could learn from you and the rest of the gentlemen on this board, Stephen and Jean are certainly on that list, and I appreciate the words of wisdom whether delivered harshly or otherwise. :thanks:

 

As I explained above to Stephen, it was not meant in a pejorative sense. I should have used "untrained" or "inexperienced" to avoid having my meaning misconstrued. My apologies......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would have been a good idea to move the ko-shinogi back a bit to make the width of the kissaki uniform from the yokote around and up, that is, the ko-shinogi should be parallel with the fukura.
I think even more reshaping is necessary, and there are quite a few other points that should be addressed. However, I didn’t reply after seeing the initial post because
I understand the concerns addressed in earlier posts, but out of respect to the polisher, if you would like to give me some guff, please feel free to pm or e-mail.
although I’m a little puzzled as to why the polish is proudly presented in public, but discussion of it discouraged … :dunno:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not that I am trying to discourage discussion, but I thought that the concerns of sending swords to an amateur polisher were well stated already. If people don't like the polish/workmanship and feel that saying, "See, I told you so," is necessary, I guess they can go ahead, but didn't see what that would add at this point. I am posting these pictures publicly so if people were interested in a polish and considered using this gentleman this could help them make their decision one way or the other.

 

I am competent enough to be able to look at the blade and make my own determinations about the job that was done. I am not looking for people to tell me what a great decision I made and tell me how nice it looks or visa-versa. I am/was trying to simply give an account of my experience with this polisher and no more. I hope this answers your question/puzzlement and if any part of this comes across and snide, that certainly was not my intention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joe-

 

I understand your motives and appreciate you sharing, however, I think it is important for those without a lot of experience to understand exactly what constitutes a proper polish. As I have said, pictures do not tell the whole story. Simply putting up pictures such as these without any sort of critique or constructive criticism of the work has the real potential to lead people astray. Full disclosure leads to well informed consumers and ultimately, proper preservation of swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Judging a polish from pictures alone is superficial...You can tell us if it is good by doing the following: look at the reflection of an incandescent light bulb in the ji and move the blade so that the reflection travels up and down the blade. Note how the shape changes as it moves up and down the blade. If the bulb stays the same round shape up and down the blade, you have a good foundation polish, if it contorts in and out every 6 inches or so, you have a poor polish, irregardless...

 

Looks like this blade had some kissaki damage in its past....

 

Hi Chris, I'll respectfully disagree with your statement in part, on one hand what you say can be true most of the time but there are times where it is not true (there are almost always exceptions to any rule, almost), in the case of some tired blades or blades that have seen very poor polishes in the past and some other circumstances. With a very tired blade or tired blade with a previous poor foundation polish, (like so many wartime polished blades, or previous poor amateur polishes from Japan or the west, or old swords etc.) it is not always the practice to correct the shape so much that they have the perfect shape (the light bulb test you refer to), the result could be a sword whose life has been ended or drastically shortened just to make a perfect shape. Your statement that it will be a poor polish is correct though - but perhaps it could not be avoided in some circumstances.

 

To sacrifice the life of the sword to make a correct shape would not be proper is what I was told when questioning this very subject years ago.

 

Respectfully, I also think that being able to really tell takes which constitutes a "good" polish cannot be determined with a simple "light bulb" test or by most people who collect or deal swords, I believe that the true critique of a polish is best done by polishing peers. That is not to say that a non polisher can not have an opinion of a polish, but it is only an opinion based on seeing swords and not by hands on work, a polisher will always see a sword differently than a collector or dealer who does not polish (and yes there are exceptions).

 

Like you said the judging of a sword polish is very hard based on pictures over the internet, but there are general rules that do apply and that do constitute a proper polish - they can usually be noticed by both polishers, knowledgeable collectors and dealers very quickly (hybrid polishes, acid etches, or just outright bad polishing etc etc.)

 

I know you are a dealer of mostly newer swords that are probably healthier and can take a polish with a proper foundation though.

 

I'm a little tired and have been working hard lately with little sleep so I hope I have conveyed my thoughts without insulting anyone, if I did I apologize.

 

I won't comment on the polish.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope this answers your question/puzzlement ...
It actually adds to my confusion. If everybody on this forum would be in the position to make up his own mind we would have countless one-post-threads. Explanations by more experienced collectors are usually the reason why many newbies come to NMB.

 

I also don't agree with Louis that only polishers can judge a polish. Like everything else when it comes to Japanese swords, it's a question of experience and education. I have quite often discussed polishes with polishers in Japan and was never told that my reasoning is flawed because I'm not a polisher myself; and I'm talking about traditionally trained, professional Togishi, not self-taught amateuers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Judging a polish from pictures alone is superficial...You can tell us if it is good by doing the following: look at the reflection of an incandescent light bulb in the ji and move the blade so that the reflection travels up and down the blade. Note how the shape changes as it moves up and down the blade. If the bulb stays the same round shape up and down the blade, you have a good foundation polish, if it contorts in and out every 6 inches or so, you have a poor polish, irregardless...

 

Looks like this blade had some kissaki damage in its past....

 

Hi Chris, I'll respectfully disagree with your statement in part, on one hand what you say can be true most of the time but there are times where it is not true (there are almost always exceptions to any rule, almost), in the case of some tired blades or blades that have seen very poor polishes in the past and some other circumstances. With a very tired blade or tired blade with a previous poor foundation polish, (like so many wartime polished blades, or previous poor amateur polishes from Japan or the west, or old swords etc.) it is not always the practice to correct the shape so much that they have the perfect shape (the light bulb test you refer to), the result could be a sword whose life has been ended or drastically shortened just to make a perfect shape. Your statement that it will be a poor polish is correct though - but perhaps it could not be avoided in some circumstances.

 

To sacrifice the life of the sword to make a correct shape would not be proper is what I was told when questioning this very subject years ago.

 

Thank you for mentioning this. I planned to edit my original post to add that there are circumstances, mostly with older blades, where damage has been removed and left the surfaces/shape less than perfect and to correct it would do more harm that good...simply forgot to do it....

 

Knowing when this is the situation is something that needs to be recognized before polish and discussed with the polisher. The problem is nearly all amateurs do not have the correct technique and will induce a wavey, improper surface, no matter what. A professional will recognize corrected damage in an old blade and do the right thing. An amateur usually has no clue. They will usually make things worse and can not correctly shape the blade in the first place.

 

WWII blades can and should have their foundation polishes corrected. They are plenty healthy in general.

 

Respectfully, I also think that being able to really tell takes which constitutes a "good" polish cannot be determined with a simple "light bulb" test or by most people who collect or deal swords, I believe that the true critique of a polish is best done by polishing peers. That is not to say that a non polisher can not have an opinion of a polish, but it is only an opinion based on seeing swords and not by hands on work, a polisher will always see a sword differently than a collector or dealer who does not polish (and yes there are exceptions).

 

The light bulb test is simply to determine if the foundation work has been done correctly. Generally, it is the most important part of polishing and one that must be done correctly if everything else is to follow well. If a polisher can not correctly set the shape of the blade, odds are they are not good at their craft. It weeds out the incompetent. Obviously there is a lot more to correct polishing. Half of the blame for the profusion of amateur polishers falls on collectors and dealers who supply them out of their own inability to judge a correct polish. If this simply test helps them to understand what a proper foundation should look like, I think it is of value.

 

No doubt a polisher looks at at blade differently and can evaluate a polish on a whole different level. That does not mean a non-polisher can not understand a good polish if taught what to look for. A race car driver does not need to build his own car to know when his car is performing properly....

 

Like you said the judging of a sword polish is very hard based on pictures over the internet, but there are general rules that do apply and that do constitute a proper polish - they can usually be noticed by both polishers, knowledgeable collectors and dealers very quickly (hybrid polishes, acid etches, or just outright bad polishing etc etc.)

 

I know you are a dealer of mostly newer swords that are probably healthier and can take a polish with a proper foundation though.

 

I'm a little tired and have been working hard lately with little sleep so I hope I have conveyed my thoughts without insulting anyone, if I did I apologize.

 

I won't comment on the polish.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

 

Sure, you can see the finishing and quickly notice if the hamon has been acid etched, if the kissaki has been properly shaped, and other points, provided the lighting and photos are good. This is only the beginning. These can look respectable in a photo but a blade is a three dimensional object-you will never be able to tell from a two dimensional photograph if everything has been done correctly and thus if the polish has been done properly. A photo can only give a superficial impression. It can weed out the obvious poor polishes but not all...I have seen women who look great in a photo and much less so in person. It is simply impossible to judge in toto the quality of a polish from a photo.

 

I appreciate your input as it has better defined the problem....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope this answers your question/puzzlement ...
It actually adds to my confusion. If everybody on this forum would be in the position to make up his own mind we would have countless one-post-threads. Explanations by more experienced collectors are usually the reason why many newbies come to NMB.

 

I also don't agree with Louis that only polishers can judge a polish. Like everything else when it comes to Japanese swords, it's a question of experience and education. I have quite often discussed polishes with polishers in Japan and was never told that my reasoning is flawed because I'm not a polisher myself; and I'm talking about traditionally trained, professional Togishi, not self-taught amateuers.

 

Agreed Guido, there are almost always exceptions to many rules, but a polisher that is trained will notice more about a polish than a non polisher in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...